What are SNK's future plans? (Japanese interview)
Jun 25, 2022 23:02:20 GMT
Riko and pimsbury like this
Post by Karman Cole on Jun 25, 2022 23:02:20 GMT
This interview has been published only in Japanese. The localisation that you see now has been realised with a automatic translator, therefore, it may contain errors and incorrectly spelled names.
If you know Japanese, public the your corrections in the comments.
SNKの過去のIPを復活させるという方向性 - 4gamer.net.
If you know Japanese, public the your corrections in the comments.
The aim of SNK's "Osaka Development" in its second founding period is to achieve further development by making the most of its existing IP. We talk to two key figures about their plans.
... This was the title of the previous SNK interview, and the people who created these "SNK IPs" are the members of SNK Osaka, the interviewees for this interview. Together with the Tokyo Studio, which has newly assembled a splendid line-up of members and is focusing on the production of new IPs, they are working on these SNK IPs, which have a presence like a bright star, and trying to rebirth them in various forms.
Like the author, those who have been involved in video games for a long time must have a greater or lesser sense of SNK's presence in the industry. In the previous interview, the focus was on the newly established Tokyo Studio, so we concentrated on new IPs, but this time the theme was the Osaka Studio (or rather, the original SNK).
We were able to get some time when two of the key people were on their way from Osaka to Tokyo, so this time we're going to ask them about Osaka in depth.
Mr. Kuroki Nobuyuki ("Mr. Kuroki"):
I thought Oda would be wearing a NEOGEO jersey today, but it was just me. This is my formal attire.
(All laugh)
4Gamer:
So that's your formal attire? I'll remember that (laughs).
Well... 4Gamer's editorial department is based in Tokyo, so last time we talked about the Tokyo base all the time. Sorry about that.
Mr. Oda Yasuyuki (Mr. Oda):
No, no.
4Gamer:
If you think about it... it goes without saying that Osaka is the original home of SNK. In the last talk, the Tokyo side said that they would never let SNK's DNA die out, and this time we wanted to hear about Osaka again, so we asked you to take some time to talk to us. Thank you very much.
Both:
Thank you very much. Please give my best regards to you.
4Gamer:
What is your position now, Oda-san?
Mr. Oda:
I can't remember the job title of the first... in Osaka at the moment. (Looking at his business card) I'm the general manager of the First Software Development Division.
Kuroki and I originally joined SNK in the same year. I think it was 1993 or something like that, but I left around 2000. After that, I worked for a developer called Dimps, and it was around 2014 or so that I was called back by the owner at the time, Mr. Kawasaki (Kawasaki Eikichi*), and that's how I came back.
In 1973, Shin Nippon Kikaku (later SNK) was founded by Kawasaki Eikichi and produced many masterpieces. After the company went bankrupt in 2001, Dimps Inc. was established mainly by the original employees of SNK's 1st Development Department. For a look back at SNK's history.
4Gamer:
Thank you very much. How did you feel about it, Mr. Kuroki?
Mr. Kuroki:
Well, we've been working together for 30 years now, so it's pretty much the same.
4Gamer:
Thirty years!
Mr Kuroki:
Yes, I think this year marks 30 years. When I was with the old SNK, we were working on "FATAL FURY" and "Art of Fighting" at the same company, but when the company went bankrupt, we quit the same way, went to Dimps in the same way, and then we joined forces again, and I became art director for "THE KING OF FIGHTERS XIV", and after that I became art director for "SAMURAI SHODOWN". I was art director and director of "SAMURAI SHODOWN". I've been working in that area for a long time, and now I'm like the person who looks after all the art units in Osaka. Like a lead artist.
4Gamer:
Thank you very much.
It's pretty amazing that we've been working together for such a long time and that our careers, or rather work histories, are almost the same.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right. Well, I was doing a completely different job at Dimps.
4Gamer:
I see.
Mr. Kuroki:
Yes. We worked at the same company, but our jobs were completely different.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, I worked a lot for Sega, but there were also many collaborations with Bandai Namco and Capcom.
4Gamer:
Oh, I see. So it's like "Sonic" and "Street Fighter" and stuff like that?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right.
At Dimps, where character-based games were mainly developed on contract, between 2007 and 2013, Kuroki was involved in many "Sonic" series titles, while Oda was instrumental in the development of "Street Fighter IV".
From SNK as a pachislot company to SNK as a software house
4Gamer:
Assuming that you had Dimps in between, and that the period before and after that was "early SNK" and "late SNK", were there any differences in culture when you went back from the early period to the late period?
Mr. Oda:
Not just the culture... was a slot company when we came back, so it was like a different industry, not just a different culture.
4Gamer:
What you were doing was completely different?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, it was.
4Gamer:
I see. Did you have any kind of anxiety about... like "What am I supposed to do with this?".
Mr. Oda:
No. Well, the owner at the time was very enthusiastic about making the game, so it was all right.
4Gamer:
He even went to the trouble of bringing him back.
SNK, as I mentioned last time, is a maker of "gaming" games and a very famous brand that even made video game consoles for old-school players. But you've been quiet for a while in the video game industry, including about the slot machines.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right.
4Gamer:
There was a time when the company wasn't very committed to the games industry, and things have started to change a lot since then. I think it's quite a change of direction...
Mr. Oda:
That's right. It was very difficult. We had to hire a lot of people... the Tokyo studio is currently in the process of hiring people, but that's exactly the kind of situation we're in now, so we had to start by hiring people...
4Gamer:
Is there still a shortage?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right.
4Gamer:
I've never been on the side of a game company, so I can only give you my layman's impression, but I haven't been making games for a while.
.
Mr. Oda:
No, that's really true.
4Gamer:
I don't think there was anyone who could make games, like...
Mr. Oda:
At the time, we were just barely able to make games for mobile phones. We were just barely making the transition from feature phones to smartphones, but there were people who were working on apps, and some people who hadn't left SNK for a long time, so we managed. But it was mostly from the outside, like this, boom (laughs). We took it from all sorts of places, with people from all sorts of companies holding grudges against us (laughs).
Mr Kuroki:
Don't say that (laughs).
4Gamer:.
Focusing on your two connections?
Mr. Kuroki:
The starting point is certainly yes.
Mr. Oda:
Well, first of all, we brought back former SNK members who had quit and scattered from various game companies...
4Gamer:
It sounds like a film.
Mr. Oda:
And then, using each of the pipes, I would try to talk to them further from there.
4Gamer:
Even after working so hard to gather staff, the owners at the time still had a strong will to make the game, didn't they?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right.
4Gamer:
It was an amazing change of direction, because you were making something completely different, albeit slightly similar.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, we had a factory for the slots, didn't we?
4Gamer:
Yes, that's right.
Mr. Oda:
But with games, you become a software house. And we don't even have a publishing department. So it's a huge change of direction, you're right.
4Gamer:
But from the way things are going, it looks like we're going to continue in the same direction. Recently, with "SamSho" and the like, the "SNK flavour" is starting to return.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's true. However, it is not our management policy to increase the size of the company itself, which is why you can see our website at... at the time of the old SNK, there were approximately five internal development teams, and you were able to produce several games a year, wasn't that right?
4Gamer:
Yes, that's right.
Mr. Oda:
We don't have that kind of structure at the moment, so we've been developing things like "KOF" and "SAMURAI SHODOWN", one at a time. It was quite difficult to break away from that kind of scale.
4Gamer:
How many people do you have now?
Mr. Oda:
We have about 125 people in Osaka at the moment, in development.
4Gamer:
How many lines are there?
Mr. Oda:
Let's see, we have one... console in operation, one app in operation and about... 4 in newly launched development.
4Gamer:
That's quite a lot.
Mr. Oda:
That's the number of external projects as well.
4Gamer:
So if you put Tokyo and Osaka together, that's quite a lot of lines?
Mr. Oda:
No, but it takes about three years to make one game these days, no matter what the scale.
4Gamer:
That's true.
Mr. Oda:
When I think about it, I feel that we still have a long way to go.
4Gamer:
Do you feel that you'll be adding more places in Osaka?
Mr. Kuroki:
Yes, we are.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, if we wanted to run all the ones we have in the current plan, I don't think there would be enough at all. But if we increase the number too much, we'll have to go to ...
4Gamer:
Is it management?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, we can't even manage a studio. Well, I'm thinking that if that happens, we'll have to build another new studio, but I'm thinking of increasing the number until we reach the limit.
4Gamer:
Well, if we increase the number of people, we'll have to increase the back office as well.
Mr. Oda:
That's right.
4Gamer:
So you're going to go to the trouble of building a base in Tokyo, and then you're going to add more people to... when the process of increasing the number of people in Osaka is not yet complete?
Mr. Oda:
In order to increase the scale of development, I thought it would be natural to build an office in a place with a lot of people.
4Gamer:
I see, in terms of the number of people.
Mr. Oda:
That's right. I'm wondering if after this we'll be talking about Nagoya or Fukuoka, something like... (laughs).
4Gamer:
Oh, that's as far as it goes.
Mr. Oda:
No, if we were to increase the number. I think there will probably be a trend to set up studios in other countries as well.
4Gamer:
There was one in China, wasn't there?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, there is one in Beijing [Pechino].
4Gamer:
Where is next after China...
Mr. Oda:
Yes, where would be good (laughs)? In terms of population, Brazil?
SNK's direction to revive past IPs.
4Gamer:
But there are so many things you're trying to do that you feel you have to increase the number of people in this way.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right. The owner changed from Mr. Kawasaki to China, and now to Saudi Arabia, and we were talking about how the owner changes every five or six years, but it seems to evolve each time.
Mr. Kuroki:
A big event every few years.
4Gamer:
Like the Olympics.
Mr. Kuroki:
The staff are used to it by now.
4Gamer:
Is anything going to change drastically within the company?
Mr. Oda:
Nothing like that, but the scale is getting bigger. Especially with the changes we've made. The reason why we are increasing the scale is because we are aiming to increase the number of things. So that will probably change a lot.
4Gamer:
We asked you last time. The idea is to become a world-renowned publisher.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right.
4Gamer:
SNK used to have about one new game a year, didn't they?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, it was a year. Well, we were working on our own hardware, and it was only in arcades, so the volume was smaller than it is now.
4Gamer:
Back then, the titles often had a year number attached to them, like 97 or 99.
Mr. Oda:
It was a way of making games, as long as the mastering was done two hours before the ROMs were produced at the factory (laughs). Nowadays it's not possible to do that...
4Gamer:
Two hours, that's amazing...
Well, anyway, with this change of policy, has there been any confusion within the company in Osaka, for example? Apart from the lack of staff, did the company itself seem to have undergone some kind of transformation?
Mr. Oda:
Did anything happen at ...?
Mr. Kuroki:
Not particularly. The development side has always been the same.
4Gamer:
Solemnly.
Mr. Kuroki:
Yes, it's all been very quiet. Even if the owner changes, nothing special happens (laughs). At the Oda level, I'm sure there's probably a lot of talk about it, but at the site, it's always been the same as before.
4Gamer:
The bloodline of SNK up to now, or is it something like that, has it always been the same?
Mr Oda:
Well, if we talk about the... technique, even if we make the same thing as SNK in the past and SNK now, the way we make it is completely different. There are changes like that, but I feel that the direction of the conversation about SNK's past IPs has changed a lot.
4Gamer:
What do you mean by that?
Mr. Oda:
MiSK Foundation, who is the current owner, is very interested in SNK's past IPs, so we are thinking of trying to revive them, but it won't just be fighting games.
4Gamer:
But even if you only look at fighting games, there are a lot of them.
Mr. Oda:
That's right. But recently it's just "KOF", so of course we have to play other games as well...
Mr. Kuroki:
(laughs)
4Gamer:
Why are you laughing there? (laughs)
Mr. Kuroki:
No, I just thought you had a lot more to say than I thought (laughs).
Mr. Oda:
For example, there are many famous titles such as "Ikari Warriors", "Metal Slug", "Athena" and "Psycho Soldier"*. I'd like to do something about that too.
*All of these titles are available in the Arcade Archives and ACA NEOGEO line-up, so whether you missed them or are curious about them, you should definitely check them out.
"IKARI" (1986), a vertical scrolling action-shooting game produced by SNK for arcades. Many people may have played the Famicom version of "IKARI", but the difficulty of that game is...
4Gamer:
So you're reaching out that way? I'm a bit glad.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right. We're going to extend where we can.
4Gamer:
We'd love to see Sasuke vs. Commander, too...
Sasuke vs. Commander", arcade game console released by Shin Nihon Kikaku (later SNK) in 1980. The "Arcade Archives Sasuke vs. Commander" was released for PS4/Switch in 2020.
Mr. Oda:
Are you going that far?
Mr. Kuroki:
Not quite (laughs).
4Gamer:
It was novel that defeated enemies could be turned into weapons, wasn't it? I liked it a lot when I was a kid.
But it was good. I think there is a bit of worry that SNK will change now that foreign capital has bought almost everything.
Mr. Oda:
What do you mean by that?
4Gamer:
For example, where is our SNK going to go?
Mr. Oda:
Ah, yes, yes. But it's not like we bought them with that intention. If anything, it's more like we're going back to the original SNK style (laughs).
4Gamer:
That's right. In the first place, they are a very high brand over there.
Mr. Oda:
That was the time of the NEOGEO.
So they have a feeling that they're rather close to the core SNK fans.
4Gamer:
You mentioned a new business with IP earlier, but it's probably quite worldwide, though you're taking on a lot of challenges with IP in Japan as well. Something like a otome game. ... It seems that it was something of "KOF"…
Mr. Kuroki:
"SNK GALS' FIGHTERS"* maybe.
*A setting where various female characters appearing in SNK games (not limited to martial arts games) gather to hold a fighting tournament. It was a title exclusively for Neo Geo Pocket Color (nostalgic!), But in recent years it has also been ported to Nintendo Switch.
4Gamer:
No, it was more like an Otome game.
Mr. Oda:
Ah, I get it. It's "THE KING OF FIGHTERS for GIRLS"*.
*It was written in 4Gamer that "a handsome fighter training app game where you can enjoy the friendship and love between the male characters appearing in SNK's fighting game 'THE KING OF FIGHTERS and the original heroine". At that time, I thought, "What?"
4Gamer:
When I saw it, I thought, "Wow, they've come up with something amazing".
Mr. Kuroki:
I don't think we can come up with something like that. I think it's interesting, but I don't think we could make it interesting even if we did (laughs).
4Gamer:
But I'm sure that they called us back because they wanted something that wasn't like that, something that was on the high road.
I want people who are buried in the masses and can't make a difference to come to SNK.
4Gamer:
Do you have a set policy on IPs?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, I'm thinking of roughly three patterns.
For example, I think we will continue to make our titles such as "KOF" as themselves. The exact opposite of that is new IP. I think this will be created from scratch.
I think there's also something in between, like... where we cook up IPs from the past in a different genre, game system or way of playing.
4Gamer:
Making use of IPs to create something different.
Mr. Oda:
That's right. For example, there used to be a "Samurai Shodown" RPG.
4Gamer:
Yes, there was.
"Shinsetsu Samurai Spirits Bushido Retsuden" contains two stories: "Evil heavenly advent" based on the first "Samurai Shodown" and "Enclave of Lamentations of Spectacular Flowers Chapter" based on "SamSho II", and was the first royal road RPG in the series to create a buzz.
Mr. Oda:
I think there is such a way of thinking. It's a bit like starting where you can and taking it a little at a time.
4Gamer:
I was just thinking of something like "SamSho" Battle Royale, and that's exactly what it's like. Is it possible that "making use of IP" is not limited to games...?
Mr. Oda:
No, as far as we are concerned, it is basically games. I think other divisions do different things.
4Gamer:
Animation, for example?
Mr. Oda:
I see. In the past, there used to be a pattern of showing anime as a special programme to liven up new releases. I think it would be interesting to do something like that again.
4Gamer:
What kind of cooperation with Tokyo do you have in mind when you are carrying out these kinds of things?
Mr. Oda:
I think that the core of development will work on its own, but where we can share things, we'll start sharing them now.
Mr. Kuroki:
That's right. We also share information at the site level. Also, as I mentioned earlier, Osaka was empty when we arrived.
4Gamer:
Yes, that's right.
Mr. Kuroki:
So I can really understand the feelings of the people at the Tokyo studio.
Well, I don't think we're really conscious of Tokyo or Osaka within the company.
Mr. Oda:
That's right. Almost everyone is remote now, so there are no people in Osaka either (laughs).
4Gamer:
It's hard to notice when you don't occupy a place remotely anymore, but there are still not enough people in Osaka either.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, with 100 people, I think the most we can do is two runs.
4Gamer:
How much are you aiming for?
Mr. Oda:
We'd like to increase the number to the limit, but there is also the capacity of the welcoming side. We'll have to keep an eye on that and see how it goes.
4Gamer:
We're increasing it quite a bit.
Mr. Oda:
We're hoping to increase the number to about 400, yes. If we can move up the number of people, we can also move up the amount of work we can start.
4Gamer:
But we don't have the human resources these days, do we?
Mr. Oda:
No, we really don't...
Mr. Kuroki:
But good people are coming to work for us now.
4Gamer:
Oh? Are they relatively young?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right. The number of new graduates who come to take the job has increased dramatically.
Mr. Kuroki:
There has been a huge increase, really. I think it's probably because of the efforts of various people, but last year it wasn't to that extent. This year, the number of people has clearly increased, so I think something must be happening somewhere (laughs).
4Gamer:
Do you know what happened?
Mr. Kuroki:
No, not at all (laughs). I'm sure that personnel and various other people are working hard on all fronts.
Mr. Oda:
I'm interviewing people while I'm about to cry.
4Gamer:
I'm sorry if I'm saying this in a bad way, but I can't really think of any strong connection between young people and SNK ... can you think of anything?
Mr. Oda:
Not really (laughs).
Mr. Kuroki:
But it's very popular with school teachers and so on.
4Gamer:
Ah, from a generational point of view.
Mr. Kuroki:
When we go to schools, they are more excited than the students. I'm just amazed.
4Gamer:
For today's new graduates, it might be the same for their parents' generation.
Mr. Kuroki:
Yes, that's true.
4Gamer:
What kind of people do you want?
Mr. Oda:
Anyone who is interested in SNK and is willing to come and work for us.
Mr. Kuroki:
No, let's say something more (laughs).
Mr. Oda:
We want people from all occupational categories to come. If there are people in mid-career who are thinking of changing jobs, we can provide more and more opportunities for them to demonstrate their abilities.
4Gamer:
Are back-office workers also welcome?
Mr. Oda:
Yes.
4Gamer:
What about mid-career people?
Mr. Oda:
There are many different companies, but if you're in a bit of agony at... right now, SNK is definitely the place for you.
4Gamer:
Does that mean you can take on all kinds of challenges?
Mr. Kuroki:
Yes, that's right. I think that people who are buried in the crowd and can't show their strength, if they come to SNK, they will be able to show their ability without regret.
4Gamer:
What is the reason for that?
Mr. Kuroki:
I entrust them with quite a lot of important things. Whether it's a middle-manager or a youngster.
4Gamer:
Do you mean that you are not a vertically structured organisation...?
Mr. Oda:
The hierarchical structure that is often found in companies is very thin. No... it's not so much that it's thin, it's that there's not much there (laughs).
Mr. Kuroki:
There aren't too many positions either. Above me, you have Oda and Abe*, and below me there are only one or two positions.
Abe Naoto is one of SNK's oldest designers. He should be older than Oda and Kuroki...
4Gamer:
I see. I think that's something you could push... a bit harder. I think it would be quite attractive.
Mr. Oda:
Well, recently our staff has become quite global, so if we're talking about that kind of thing, there's not so much of a senior/junior concept anymore.
Mr. Kuroki:
I don't think that's true.
4Gamer:
To put it simply, it's like you're letting the youngsters do all sorts of things as much as they want to.
Mr. Kuroki:
That's right. We've seen a lot of different companies, but I think the way a company like SNK does things is probably a bit unusual. "At this age, they're already making us do this kind of thing?" I think there might be something like that.
4Gamer:
Do you have any examples that we can write about in the article?
Mr. Kuroki:
For example, there are many popular characters in "FATAL FURY" and "KOF", but usually those popular characters are created by veterans.
4Gamer:
Yes, of course.
Mr. Kuroki:
But at SNK, for example, Rock Howard in "KOF" is made by third- or fourth-year students, and the senior employees take care of them.
Rock Howard is a character from 'Team Garou: Mark of the Wolves', which is a DLC of 'THE KING OF FIGHTERS XV' released in March this year.
4Gamer:
It's a kind of on-the-job training.
Mr. Kuroki:
Well, yes (laughs). But once you've experienced something like that, you can do a higher level of work the next time around, and I'm not too particular about that kind of common sense at least, so I just keep handing out work to people who want to do it and who are capable of it.
4Gamer:
That's great, but it sounds like it might be a bit of a challenge for the person who finally puts it all together.
Mr. Kuroki:
Well, but that's something we have to do.
4Gamer:
But you're going to let them do that?
Mr. Kuroki:
In my experience, most people don't start dealing with external companies until they've reached a certain level of experience, but in our case, we let people experience that kind of thing from a relatively early stage.
4Gamer:
There are probably people who do their best to follow up on this, aren't there?
Mr. Kuroki:
Of course (laughs). That's something we both have to do.
4Gamer:
No, I understand. It would never work without followers, but it's good that you dare to do that.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right. In development, the title of director is at the top, isn't it? On site, I want people to reach that director position while they are as young as possible. I think it's better to have a longer 'director period'.
4Gamer:
Well, in the last interview, the Tokyo team members all said that SNK's internal structure is unusual.
Mr. Oda:
(Looking towards the Tokyo group) Is that so?
(Tokyo group nodding in unison)
4Gamer:
They all said that it's not easy to find something like that.
Tokyo Group:
That much (laughs).
Compared to our own time, youngsters these days are really intelligent.
4Gamer: Well, that kind of company colour is what makes SNK what it is today, and I want you to cherish that.
Mr. Kuroki:
Well, we were made that way by our seniors too.
4Gamer:
The old SNK?
Mr. Kuroki:
Yes, that's right.
4Gamer:
So that's how it was.
Mr. Kuroki:
I was entrusted with bigger and bigger jobs, so I think that kind of thing has become the norm.
Mr. Oda:
Oh, but ... I'm 50 years old now. But when we joined SNK in the past, when we were around 20 years old, there were no 50-year-olds in the development team.
Mr. Kuroki:
Come to think of it, there weren't (laughs).
Mr. Oda:
The oldest was a little over 30, so I think we were all really working together like a club.
Mr. Kuroki:
That's certainly true... To be honest, at that time, we were all 30 years old...
Mr. Oda:
That's right. Uncles are...
Mr. Kuroki:
I thought they were... I've far surpassed my boss at that time, and I wonder how the new kids look at me now (laughs).
Mr. Oda:
If you're 30 years old now, you're still young.
4Gamer:
I've always been in the media, but when I graduated and became a magazine editor, the editor-in-chief at the time was 34 years old. At the time I thought, "Wow, he's an adult...". Come to think of it.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, yes (laughs). And because we were all young, we were all very bossy. It was like something was always on the edge (laughs).
Mr. Kuroki:
That's not everyone, it's just you (laughs).
Mr. Oda:
No, no, no, right?
4Gamer:
I read an interview with Oda-san in our portal the other day, and he said that he joined the company thinking it would be enough to eat for about five years, but for someone like that, he was pretty arrogant (laughs).
Mr. Kuroki:
He was the most pompous of all my peers.
4Gamer:
And now you're like this.
Mr. Kuroki:
It's unbelievable.
4Gamer:
Well, in the past there wasn't a lot of information, and it was like you chose a company on the basis of momentum and groove, but nowadays you can find out all kinds of information, and as I know from doing interviews myself, there are also young people who are concerned about benefits and stability.
From what I've heard so far, there seems to be an atmosphere that many young people like the former will jump in.
Mr. Oda:
No, we want both.
4Gamer:
But on the flip side of this characteristic, it seems like it would be tough for those who don't have anything they want to do.
Mr. Kuroki:
I don't think people who don't have anything they want to do would come in the first place, so it's probably fine!
4Gamer:
Are you two going to be doing interviews as well?
Mr.Oda:
Yes, we're doing our best. Fujishige* and I say every day, "Our wages come from interviews!".
*Fujishige Kazuhiro, General Manager of SNK's second software development division, who also appeared in the previous interview. During this interview, he was listening to the conversation with a grin on his face stationed off camera.
(Everyone laughs)
Mr. Oda:
There are days when I do almost nothing but interviews.
4Gamer:
So you do that much?
Mr. Oda:
On many days, I talk so much that I don't want to see anyone anymore.
Mr. Kuroki:
That's a lot these days.
4Gamer:
Are there any particular characteristics of the people who come for interviews these days?
Mr. Oda:
Well, I compare them to when I was younger, so I think they're all very intelligent (laughs).
Mr. Kuroki:
I really think so (laughs). They're really solid.
4Gamer:
I can see what you mean.
Mr. Oda:
I only became able to speak like they do in interviews when I was about 30 years old. They speak very difficult things.
Mr. Kuroki:
I get nervous when they ask me questions|I'm thrilled when asked what to do [?].
4Gamer:
You're still young and you live your life thinking about that? I think so.
Mr. Oda:
When I was in primary school, Gundam plastic models were popular. I was seriously building Gundam plastic models back then, and I'm still doing the same thing today. Sometimes when I realise that, I think "Seriously?".
4Gamer:
No, no, that's work (laughs). But really, young people today are very smart...
Mr. Oda:
I'm just giving you an idea, but back then we could only speak in hiragana. Nowadays, all the new graduates who come to take the job speak in kanji. And the sentences are long.
Mr. Kuroki:
They also learn their jobs quickly.
Mr. Oda:
Sometimes I wish this person could be my boss.
Mr Kuroki:
During interviews, I would make notes saying, "I see, that's how you think about it" (laughs).
4Gamer:
By the way, what kind of things do you look for?
Mr. Oda:
Right now we are trying to recruit a really diverse range of people, so the first thing we look at is whether or not they can work together with everyone. Also, I think it's better to have people of all types join us.
Mr. Kuroki:
I think it's good if they have some strengths. If there were only sharp people, the development would be a mess...
Mr. Oda:
That's exactly like when we were there.
Mr. Kuroki:
Yes (laughs). I think it's better to have a variety of colours now.
4Gamer:
People who are sharp tend to be small unless there are several of them, but if you exceed a certain percentage, the organisation becomes more and more like this...
Mr. Kuroki:
That's right (laughs).
Mr. Oda:
Well, as I said earlier, for those who have experience, no matter how modest you look at it, now is the time to come. If you want to express yourself, by all means.
Mr. Kuroki:
If I heard that now, I would go.
Mr. Oda:
Recently, there have been a lot of big productions, and it takes four or five years of development to complete a single work at... so, if you finish that work and you want to do the next one with the same group, and the director A at that time is the same director A for the next one, the person who thinks that I can do better won't get a chance. SNK can provide that chance.
4Gamer:
Whenever I talk to people in the industry, I always think, for example, if it takes three years to develop one game, even if you work for ten years, you'll only be involved in three games. If you're not good at it, you might be involved in two projects, or zero if the project is cancelled halfway through. I think it may be much more difficult to build up a career than in the past.
Mr. Oda:
That's right.
4Gamer:
That's why it's good to hear stories like the one you just told us.
Mr. Kuroki:
If they don't grow up quickly, we'll be retired too.
4Gamer:
In the next 10 years, we can make three games.
Mr. Oda:
Yeah...? Yes, that's right...
4Gamer:
What? Is it possible that there is a parallel?
Mr. Oda:
Nowadays, after releasing a game, you have to manage it, don't you? It's not as easy as it used to be (laughs).
4Gamer:
It's true that you don't just sell the game and that's it.
Mr. Oda:
That's why we don't have a chance to have a master-up launch. In the past, there used to be one every time.
Mr. Kuroki:
That's right.
Mr. Oda:
Nowadays, we don't even know when the end date is.
Mr. Kuroki:
When the next project starts, some people leave the company, one by one. It's as if the number of people is decreasing before you know it, so there is no indication of when the project will end.
Mr. Oda:
If you don't know how long you have to keep practising this game, then it ends when you say, "There's no future in playing this game anymore".
4Gamer:
That wasn't the case in the past.
Mr. Oda:
In the old days. Well, we were in arcades, so we had to release ROMs in the MVS cabinet one after another. I can say this now, but our sales people told us that it would be a problem if we kept on doing that for too long (laughs).
4Gamer:
I know what you mean (laughs).
Mr. Oda:
Of course, shops are happy if you make software that lasts a long time.
4Gamer:
Some of our staff, for example, play Pokémon and FF7 over and over again, but they don't contribute financially to the industry at all, or something like that... (laughs).
I used to work on paper magazines, but as soon as the hellish deadline was over, I'd just go about my business for a week or so, doing nothing at all.
Mr. Kuroki:
I want it to end, don't I? The same goes for development.
4Gamer:
I want to have a line that says, "This is the end".
But, of course, the team doesn't suddenly disappear after launch, does it?
Mr. Kuroki:
That's right.
4Gamer:
Does that mean that the more things you release, the more people you have?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right. We also have to constantly maintain the development environment, so there are physical difficulties as well.
Mr. Kuroki:
This is a simple story, but it's really hard work (laughs).
4Gamer:
That's true… in the old days, when you mastered up, it seemed like everyone went out for a drink?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right. Well, since we are of a different generation, I thought it might not be a good idea to invite people to have a... drink, so I tried not to organise any drinking parties, but recently I found out that surprisingly there are many people who want to go out drinking.
4Gamer:
What do you mean "discovered"?
Mr. Oda:
But I wonder if it would be... an harassment if I asked them...
4Gamer:
I'd be concerned about harassment too, wouldn't I?
Mr. Kuroki:
It's completely an old man's problem.
4Gamer:
I often hesitate, wondering if it's okay to say this or not.
Not aiming for a 'clean circle', Osaka will focus on utilising existing IP
4Gamer:
But back to the topic at hand, you are going to be working on both major new IPs and utilising existing IPs in the future, aren't you?
Mr. Oda:
Osaka is more focused on existing IPs. What kind of development can we do on top of that?
4Gamer:
That's your main mission, and you're aiming for 400 people, isn't that pretty good?
Mr. Oda:
That's right. We have a lot of assets.
4Gamer:
We have quite a lot, don't we? But are you planning to work on almost all of them?
Mr. Oda:
No, as you'd expect, we prioritise them. There are quite a lot of minor titles, after all. We'll start with the major titles first.
4Gamer:
Major titles first. I see. So there is a borderline somewhere between major and non-major?
Mr. Oda:
There are a lot of titles that are on the borderline, or rather, on the line of elimination (laughs).
4Gamer:
By the way, I'm really curious as to which titles fall into that category (laughs).
Mr. Oda:
Hmm, this varies from person to person...
4Gamer:
Yes.
Mr. Oda:
For example, "The Last Blade".
4Gamer:
Yes.
Mr. Oda:
It's a title that's on the bottom of my list, but for some people it has an unusually high priority, even higher than "KOF".
4Gamer:
I understand, because I liked it a bit too.
Mr. Oda:
There are quite a few titles that people have a strong attachment to, so I think it's really dangerous not to handle them carefully.
4Gamer:
By the way, how do you decide in the end?
Mr. Oda:
Well, in the end, it's my own decision (laughs). Well, I listen to the opinions of various people.
4Gamer:
You can't just say it's a majority decision. Of course numbers are important because it's a business, but I don't think it would be a good idea to decide by majority vote.
Mr. Oda:
That's right.
The original method of production was really like intuition, spirit and... wasn't it?
4Gamer:
I'm sure that's true (laughs).
Mr. Oda:
That's what it was like...
Yes, that's right. Have you heard of "BURIKI ONE"?
4Gamer:
"BURIKI ONE"? I'm sorry, I don't think I know it...
Mr. Oda:
It was a mysterious fighting game where you moved with the left button and attacked with the right lever.
4Gamer:
Ah! That's how I understood it.
Mr. Oda:
I thought everyone was drinking when we were making it (laughs).
4Gamer:
I wonder who thought of that (laughs).
Mr. Kuroki:
If I say too much, I'll get in trouble (laughs).
4Gamer:
I think it's amazing that it has been commercialised.
Mr. Kuroki:
In many ways it's a legendary game.
Mr. Oda:
Recently, we've been able to get a lot of data, so to a certain extent we've been able to get it right. Can I talk about "FATAL FURY 3"?
4Gamer:
By all means.
Mr. Oda:
In the "FATAL FURY" series, there is a game called "FATAL FURY 3". Well, we were involved in it, but it failed in terms of business at the time. And in "FATAL FURY", there was a line shift, like a line in the back and a line in the front. It was a little bit like expressing a three-dimensional effect.
4Gamer:
Yes, that's how we expressed the three-dimensionality of 2D fighting.
Mr. Oda:
So I said that "FATAL FURY 2" was played with two lines, one at the back and one at the front, so I said that "FATAL FURY 3" would have three lines and increased the number to three. We thought it was stupid, but we did it.
Mr. Kuroki:
I told him to stop right there (laughs).
(All laugh).
Mr. Oda:
I wondered how I would operate it, but I couldn't really operate it. But it was fun, wasn't it? It was interesting, but... well, at the time, everyone thought it was a good idea, so that's what we did.
Mr. Kuroki:
And that was around the time when 3D games were just starting to appear. I think there was a longing for that, too.
4Gamer:
Well, moving lines is a royal road, isn't it?
Mr. Kuroki:
It's a pain in the ass to make.
4Gamer:
Which parts are the main ones?
Mr. Oda:
It's just at an angle that makes it look uncool from an artistic point of view.
4Gamer:
Oh, I see.
Mr. Oda:
It was very difficult to draw the pixel art. We were already fighting with each other half the time.
4Gamer:
But, as with the story of "The Last Blade", IPs from the old days of enthusiasm weren't measured by KPIs or anything like that, so I feel like it's better not to use numbers in the same way.
Mr. Oda:
It's also the case that we couldn't use them because we didn't get them. There are good and bad aspects.
4Gamer:
Of course there are. But I feel that if everything is based on numbers, then the weird and tasty things like that will fall away.
Mr. Oda:
That's true. It just becomes more and more "beautiful circles".
4Gamer:
It's a pain and an itch for the data too. That's why I'd like SNK to focus on both.
Mr. Kuroki:
That's why we want all kinds of people. Even people who say strange things.
4Gamer:
So you're going to be more active in Osaka than ever after this, while continuing your recruitment activities in that area as well?
Mr. Oda:
That's right.
Mr. Kuroki:
We are looking forward to working with people who want to create something.
4Gamer:
Thank you very much.
――3 June 2022.
What does the name "SNK" remind you? THE KING OF FIGHTERS, SAMURAI SHODOWN, NEOGEO, METAL SLUG, FATAL FURY..."
... This was the title of the previous SNK interview, and the people who created these "SNK IPs" are the members of SNK Osaka, the interviewees for this interview. Together with the Tokyo Studio, which has newly assembled a splendid line-up of members and is focusing on the production of new IPs, they are working on these SNK IPs, which have a presence like a bright star, and trying to rebirth them in various forms.
Like the author, those who have been involved in video games for a long time must have a greater or lesser sense of SNK's presence in the industry. In the previous interview, the focus was on the newly established Tokyo Studio, so we concentrated on new IPs, but this time the theme was the Osaka Studio (or rather, the original SNK).
We were able to get some time when two of the key people were on their way from Osaka to Tokyo, so this time we're going to ask them about Osaka in depth.
Oda Yasuyuki (right)
General Manager of SNK's 1st Software Development Division
Oda was involved in the development of the "FATAL FURY" series and the "ART OF FIGHTING" series during his time at the former SNK, before moving to Dimps in 2000 and returning to SNK in 2014 to set up the console development department, releasing "KOF" and "SAMURAI SHODOWN".
Kuroki Nobuyuki (left)
Lead Artist, SNK's 1st Software Development Division
His background is almost the same as Oda's. After returning to SNK, he has been in charge of the artist department.
General Manager of SNK's 1st Software Development Division
Oda was involved in the development of the "FATAL FURY" series and the "ART OF FIGHTING" series during his time at the former SNK, before moving to Dimps in 2000 and returning to SNK in 2014 to set up the console development department, releasing "KOF" and "SAMURAI SHODOWN".
Kuroki Nobuyuki (left)
Lead Artist, SNK's 1st Software Development Division
His background is almost the same as Oda's. After returning to SNK, he has been in charge of the artist department.
Mr. Kuroki Nobuyuki ("Mr. Kuroki"):
I thought Oda would be wearing a NEOGEO jersey today, but it was just me. This is my formal attire.
(All laugh)
4Gamer:
So that's your formal attire? I'll remember that (laughs).
Well... 4Gamer's editorial department is based in Tokyo, so last time we talked about the Tokyo base all the time. Sorry about that.
Mr. Oda Yasuyuki (Mr. Oda):
No, no.
4Gamer:
If you think about it... it goes without saying that Osaka is the original home of SNK. In the last talk, the Tokyo side said that they would never let SNK's DNA die out, and this time we wanted to hear about Osaka again, so we asked you to take some time to talk to us. Thank you very much.
Both:
Thank you very much. Please give my best regards to you.
4Gamer:
What is your position now, Oda-san?
Mr. Oda:
I can't remember the job title of the first... in Osaka at the moment. (Looking at his business card) I'm the general manager of the First Software Development Division.
Kuroki and I originally joined SNK in the same year. I think it was 1993 or something like that, but I left around 2000. After that, I worked for a developer called Dimps, and it was around 2014 or so that I was called back by the owner at the time, Mr. Kawasaki (Kawasaki Eikichi*), and that's how I came back.
In 1973, Shin Nippon Kikaku (later SNK) was founded by Kawasaki Eikichi and produced many masterpieces. After the company went bankrupt in 2001, Dimps Inc. was established mainly by the original employees of SNK's 1st Development Department. For a look back at SNK's history.
4Gamer:
Thank you very much. How did you feel about it, Mr. Kuroki?
Mr. Kuroki:
Well, we've been working together for 30 years now, so it's pretty much the same.
4Gamer:
Thirty years!
Mr Kuroki:
Yes, I think this year marks 30 years. When I was with the old SNK, we were working on "FATAL FURY" and "Art of Fighting" at the same company, but when the company went bankrupt, we quit the same way, went to Dimps in the same way, and then we joined forces again, and I became art director for "THE KING OF FIGHTERS XIV", and after that I became art director for "SAMURAI SHODOWN". I was art director and director of "SAMURAI SHODOWN". I've been working in that area for a long time, and now I'm like the person who looks after all the art units in Osaka. Like a lead artist.
4Gamer:
Thank you very much.
It's pretty amazing that we've been working together for such a long time and that our careers, or rather work histories, are almost the same.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right. Well, I was doing a completely different job at Dimps.
4Gamer:
I see.
Mr. Kuroki:
Yes. We worked at the same company, but our jobs were completely different.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, I worked a lot for Sega, but there were also many collaborations with Bandai Namco and Capcom.
4Gamer:
Oh, I see. So it's like "Sonic" and "Street Fighter" and stuff like that?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right.
At Dimps, where character-based games were mainly developed on contract, between 2007 and 2013, Kuroki was involved in many "Sonic" series titles, while Oda was instrumental in the development of "Street Fighter IV".
From SNK as a pachislot company to SNK as a software house
4Gamer:
Assuming that you had Dimps in between, and that the period before and after that was "early SNK" and "late SNK", were there any differences in culture when you went back from the early period to the late period?
Mr. Oda:
Not just the culture... was a slot company when we came back, so it was like a different industry, not just a different culture.
4Gamer:
What you were doing was completely different?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, it was.
4Gamer:
I see. Did you have any kind of anxiety about... like "What am I supposed to do with this?".
Mr. Oda:
No. Well, the owner at the time was very enthusiastic about making the game, so it was all right.
4Gamer:
He even went to the trouble of bringing him back.
SNK, as I mentioned last time, is a maker of "gaming" games and a very famous brand that even made video game consoles for old-school players. But you've been quiet for a while in the video game industry, including about the slot machines.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right.
4Gamer:
There was a time when the company wasn't very committed to the games industry, and things have started to change a lot since then. I think it's quite a change of direction...
Mr. Oda:
That's right. It was very difficult. We had to hire a lot of people... the Tokyo studio is currently in the process of hiring people, but that's exactly the kind of situation we're in now, so we had to start by hiring people...
4Gamer:
Is there still a shortage?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right.
4Gamer:
I've never been on the side of a game company, so I can only give you my layman's impression, but I haven't been making games for a while.
.
Mr. Oda:
No, that's really true.
4Gamer:
I don't think there was anyone who could make games, like...
Mr. Oda:
At the time, we were just barely able to make games for mobile phones. We were just barely making the transition from feature phones to smartphones, but there were people who were working on apps, and some people who hadn't left SNK for a long time, so we managed. But it was mostly from the outside, like this, boom (laughs). We took it from all sorts of places, with people from all sorts of companies holding grudges against us (laughs).
Mr Kuroki:
Don't say that (laughs).
4Gamer:.
Focusing on your two connections?
Mr. Kuroki:
The starting point is certainly yes.
Mr. Oda:
Well, first of all, we brought back former SNK members who had quit and scattered from various game companies...
4Gamer:
It sounds like a film.
Mr. Oda:
And then, using each of the pipes, I would try to talk to them further from there.
4Gamer:
Even after working so hard to gather staff, the owners at the time still had a strong will to make the game, didn't they?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right.
4Gamer:
It was an amazing change of direction, because you were making something completely different, albeit slightly similar.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, we had a factory for the slots, didn't we?
4Gamer:
Yes, that's right.
Mr. Oda:
But with games, you become a software house. And we don't even have a publishing department. So it's a huge change of direction, you're right.
4Gamer:
But from the way things are going, it looks like we're going to continue in the same direction. Recently, with "SamSho" and the like, the "SNK flavour" is starting to return.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's true. However, it is not our management policy to increase the size of the company itself, which is why you can see our website at... at the time of the old SNK, there were approximately five internal development teams, and you were able to produce several games a year, wasn't that right?
4Gamer:
Yes, that's right.
Mr. Oda:
We don't have that kind of structure at the moment, so we've been developing things like "KOF" and "SAMURAI SHODOWN", one at a time. It was quite difficult to break away from that kind of scale.
4Gamer:
How many people do you have now?
Mr. Oda:
We have about 125 people in Osaka at the moment, in development.
4Gamer:
How many lines are there?
Mr. Oda:
Let's see, we have one... console in operation, one app in operation and about... 4 in newly launched development.
4Gamer:
That's quite a lot.
Mr. Oda:
That's the number of external projects as well.
4Gamer:
So if you put Tokyo and Osaka together, that's quite a lot of lines?
Mr. Oda:
No, but it takes about three years to make one game these days, no matter what the scale.
4Gamer:
That's true.
Mr. Oda:
When I think about it, I feel that we still have a long way to go.
4Gamer:
Do you feel that you'll be adding more places in Osaka?
Mr. Kuroki:
Yes, we are.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, if we wanted to run all the ones we have in the current plan, I don't think there would be enough at all. But if we increase the number too much, we'll have to go to ...
4Gamer:
Is it management?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, we can't even manage a studio. Well, I'm thinking that if that happens, we'll have to build another new studio, but I'm thinking of increasing the number until we reach the limit.
4Gamer:
Well, if we increase the number of people, we'll have to increase the back office as well.
Mr. Oda:
That's right.
4Gamer:
So you're going to go to the trouble of building a base in Tokyo, and then you're going to add more people to... when the process of increasing the number of people in Osaka is not yet complete?
Mr. Oda:
In order to increase the scale of development, I thought it would be natural to build an office in a place with a lot of people.
4Gamer:
I see, in terms of the number of people.
Mr. Oda:
That's right. I'm wondering if after this we'll be talking about Nagoya or Fukuoka, something like... (laughs).
4Gamer:
Oh, that's as far as it goes.
Mr. Oda:
No, if we were to increase the number. I think there will probably be a trend to set up studios in other countries as well.
4Gamer:
There was one in China, wasn't there?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, there is one in Beijing [Pechino].
4Gamer:
Where is next after China...
Mr. Oda:
Yes, where would be good (laughs)? In terms of population, Brazil?
SNK's direction to revive past IPs.
4Gamer:
But there are so many things you're trying to do that you feel you have to increase the number of people in this way.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right. The owner changed from Mr. Kawasaki to China, and now to Saudi Arabia, and we were talking about how the owner changes every five or six years, but it seems to evolve each time.
Mr. Kuroki:
A big event every few years.
4Gamer:
Like the Olympics.
Mr. Kuroki:
The staff are used to it by now.
4Gamer:
Is anything going to change drastically within the company?
Mr. Oda:
Nothing like that, but the scale is getting bigger. Especially with the changes we've made. The reason why we are increasing the scale is because we are aiming to increase the number of things. So that will probably change a lot.
4Gamer:
We asked you last time. The idea is to become a world-renowned publisher.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right.
4Gamer:
SNK used to have about one new game a year, didn't they?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, it was a year. Well, we were working on our own hardware, and it was only in arcades, so the volume was smaller than it is now.
4Gamer:
Back then, the titles often had a year number attached to them, like 97 or 99.
Mr. Oda:
It was a way of making games, as long as the mastering was done two hours before the ROMs were produced at the factory (laughs). Nowadays it's not possible to do that...
4Gamer:
Two hours, that's amazing...
Well, anyway, with this change of policy, has there been any confusion within the company in Osaka, for example? Apart from the lack of staff, did the company itself seem to have undergone some kind of transformation?
Mr. Oda:
Did anything happen at ...?
Mr. Kuroki:
Not particularly. The development side has always been the same.
4Gamer:
Solemnly.
Mr. Kuroki:
Yes, it's all been very quiet. Even if the owner changes, nothing special happens (laughs). At the Oda level, I'm sure there's probably a lot of talk about it, but at the site, it's always been the same as before.
4Gamer:
The bloodline of SNK up to now, or is it something like that, has it always been the same?
Mr Oda:
Well, if we talk about the... technique, even if we make the same thing as SNK in the past and SNK now, the way we make it is completely different. There are changes like that, but I feel that the direction of the conversation about SNK's past IPs has changed a lot.
4Gamer:
What do you mean by that?
Mr. Oda:
MiSK Foundation, who is the current owner, is very interested in SNK's past IPs, so we are thinking of trying to revive them, but it won't just be fighting games.
4Gamer:
But even if you only look at fighting games, there are a lot of them.
Mr. Oda:
That's right. But recently it's just "KOF", so of course we have to play other games as well...
Mr. Kuroki:
(laughs)
4Gamer:
Why are you laughing there? (laughs)
Mr. Kuroki:
No, I just thought you had a lot more to say than I thought (laughs).
Mr. Oda:
For example, there are many famous titles such as "Ikari Warriors", "Metal Slug", "Athena" and "Psycho Soldier"*. I'd like to do something about that too.
*All of these titles are available in the Arcade Archives and ACA NEOGEO line-up, so whether you missed them or are curious about them, you should definitely check them out.
"IKARI" (1986), a vertical scrolling action-shooting game produced by SNK for arcades. Many people may have played the Famicom version of "IKARI", but the difficulty of that game is...
4Gamer:
So you're reaching out that way? I'm a bit glad.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right. We're going to extend where we can.
4Gamer:
We'd love to see Sasuke vs. Commander, too...
Sasuke vs. Commander", arcade game console released by Shin Nihon Kikaku (later SNK) in 1980. The "Arcade Archives Sasuke vs. Commander" was released for PS4/Switch in 2020.
Mr. Oda:
Are you going that far?
Mr. Kuroki:
Not quite (laughs).
4Gamer:
It was novel that defeated enemies could be turned into weapons, wasn't it? I liked it a lot when I was a kid.
But it was good. I think there is a bit of worry that SNK will change now that foreign capital has bought almost everything.
Mr. Oda:
What do you mean by that?
4Gamer:
For example, where is our SNK going to go?
Mr. Oda:
Ah, yes, yes. But it's not like we bought them with that intention. If anything, it's more like we're going back to the original SNK style (laughs).
4Gamer:
That's right. In the first place, they are a very high brand over there.
Mr. Oda:
That was the time of the NEOGEO.
So they have a feeling that they're rather close to the core SNK fans.
4Gamer:
You mentioned a new business with IP earlier, but it's probably quite worldwide, though you're taking on a lot of challenges with IP in Japan as well. Something like a otome game. ... It seems that it was something of "KOF"…
Mr. Kuroki:
"SNK GALS' FIGHTERS"* maybe.
*A setting where various female characters appearing in SNK games (not limited to martial arts games) gather to hold a fighting tournament. It was a title exclusively for Neo Geo Pocket Color (nostalgic!), But in recent years it has also been ported to Nintendo Switch.
4Gamer:
No, it was more like an Otome game.
Mr. Oda:
Ah, I get it. It's "THE KING OF FIGHTERS for GIRLS"*.
*It was written in 4Gamer that "a handsome fighter training app game where you can enjoy the friendship and love between the male characters appearing in SNK's fighting game 'THE KING OF FIGHTERS and the original heroine". At that time, I thought, "What?"
4Gamer:
When I saw it, I thought, "Wow, they've come up with something amazing".
Mr. Kuroki:
I don't think we can come up with something like that. I think it's interesting, but I don't think we could make it interesting even if we did (laughs).
4Gamer:
But I'm sure that they called us back because they wanted something that wasn't like that, something that was on the high road.
I want people who are buried in the masses and can't make a difference to come to SNK.
4Gamer:
Do you have a set policy on IPs?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, I'm thinking of roughly three patterns.
For example, I think we will continue to make our titles such as "KOF" as themselves. The exact opposite of that is new IP. I think this will be created from scratch.
I think there's also something in between, like... where we cook up IPs from the past in a different genre, game system or way of playing.
4Gamer:
Making use of IPs to create something different.
Mr. Oda:
That's right. For example, there used to be a "Samurai Shodown" RPG.
4Gamer:
Yes, there was.
"Shinsetsu Samurai Spirits Bushido Retsuden" contains two stories: "Evil heavenly advent" based on the first "Samurai Shodown" and "Enclave of Lamentations of Spectacular Flowers Chapter" based on "SamSho II", and was the first royal road RPG in the series to create a buzz.Mr. Oda:
I think there is such a way of thinking. It's a bit like starting where you can and taking it a little at a time.
4Gamer:
I was just thinking of something like "SamSho" Battle Royale, and that's exactly what it's like. Is it possible that "making use of IP" is not limited to games...?
Mr. Oda:
No, as far as we are concerned, it is basically games. I think other divisions do different things.
4Gamer:
Animation, for example?
Mr. Oda:
I see. In the past, there used to be a pattern of showing anime as a special programme to liven up new releases. I think it would be interesting to do something like that again.
4Gamer:
What kind of cooperation with Tokyo do you have in mind when you are carrying out these kinds of things?
Mr. Oda:
I think that the core of development will work on its own, but where we can share things, we'll start sharing them now.
Mr. Kuroki:
That's right. We also share information at the site level. Also, as I mentioned earlier, Osaka was empty when we arrived.
4Gamer:
Yes, that's right.
Mr. Kuroki:
So I can really understand the feelings of the people at the Tokyo studio.
Well, I don't think we're really conscious of Tokyo or Osaka within the company.
Mr. Oda:
That's right. Almost everyone is remote now, so there are no people in Osaka either (laughs).
4Gamer:
It's hard to notice when you don't occupy a place remotely anymore, but there are still not enough people in Osaka either.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, with 100 people, I think the most we can do is two runs.
4Gamer:
How much are you aiming for?
Mr. Oda:
We'd like to increase the number to the limit, but there is also the capacity of the welcoming side. We'll have to keep an eye on that and see how it goes.
4Gamer:
We're increasing it quite a bit.
Mr. Oda:
We're hoping to increase the number to about 400, yes. If we can move up the number of people, we can also move up the amount of work we can start.
4Gamer:
But we don't have the human resources these days, do we?
Mr. Oda:
No, we really don't...
Mr. Kuroki:
But good people are coming to work for us now.
4Gamer:
Oh? Are they relatively young?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right. The number of new graduates who come to take the job has increased dramatically.
Mr. Kuroki:
There has been a huge increase, really. I think it's probably because of the efforts of various people, but last year it wasn't to that extent. This year, the number of people has clearly increased, so I think something must be happening somewhere (laughs).
4Gamer:
Do you know what happened?
Mr. Kuroki:
No, not at all (laughs). I'm sure that personnel and various other people are working hard on all fronts.
Mr. Oda:
I'm interviewing people while I'm about to cry.
4Gamer:
I'm sorry if I'm saying this in a bad way, but I can't really think of any strong connection between young people and SNK ... can you think of anything?
Mr. Oda:
Not really (laughs).
Mr. Kuroki:
But it's very popular with school teachers and so on.
4Gamer:
Ah, from a generational point of view.
Mr. Kuroki:
When we go to schools, they are more excited than the students. I'm just amazed.
4Gamer:
For today's new graduates, it might be the same for their parents' generation.
Mr. Kuroki:
Yes, that's true.
4Gamer:
What kind of people do you want?
Mr. Oda:
Anyone who is interested in SNK and is willing to come and work for us.
Mr. Kuroki:
No, let's say something more (laughs).
Mr. Oda:
We want people from all occupational categories to come. If there are people in mid-career who are thinking of changing jobs, we can provide more and more opportunities for them to demonstrate their abilities.
4Gamer:
Are back-office workers also welcome?
Mr. Oda:
Yes.
4Gamer:
What about mid-career people?
Mr. Oda:
There are many different companies, but if you're in a bit of agony at... right now, SNK is definitely the place for you.
4Gamer:
Does that mean you can take on all kinds of challenges?
Mr. Kuroki:
Yes, that's right. I think that people who are buried in the crowd and can't show their strength, if they come to SNK, they will be able to show their ability without regret.
4Gamer:
What is the reason for that?
Mr. Kuroki:
I entrust them with quite a lot of important things. Whether it's a middle-manager or a youngster.
4Gamer:
Do you mean that you are not a vertically structured organisation...?
Mr. Oda:
The hierarchical structure that is often found in companies is very thin. No... it's not so much that it's thin, it's that there's not much there (laughs).
Mr. Kuroki:
There aren't too many positions either. Above me, you have Oda and Abe*, and below me there are only one or two positions.
Abe Naoto is one of SNK's oldest designers. He should be older than Oda and Kuroki...
4Gamer:
I see. I think that's something you could push... a bit harder. I think it would be quite attractive.
Mr. Oda:
Well, recently our staff has become quite global, so if we're talking about that kind of thing, there's not so much of a senior/junior concept anymore.
Mr. Kuroki:
I don't think that's true.
4Gamer:
To put it simply, it's like you're letting the youngsters do all sorts of things as much as they want to.
Mr. Kuroki:
That's right. We've seen a lot of different companies, but I think the way a company like SNK does things is probably a bit unusual. "At this age, they're already making us do this kind of thing?" I think there might be something like that.
4Gamer:
Do you have any examples that we can write about in the article?
Mr. Kuroki:
For example, there are many popular characters in "FATAL FURY" and "KOF", but usually those popular characters are created by veterans.
4Gamer:
Yes, of course.
Mr. Kuroki:
But at SNK, for example, Rock Howard in "KOF" is made by third- or fourth-year students, and the senior employees take care of them.
Rock Howard is a character from 'Team Garou: Mark of the Wolves', which is a DLC of 'THE KING OF FIGHTERS XV' released in March this year.
4Gamer:
It's a kind of on-the-job training.
Mr. Kuroki:
Well, yes (laughs). But once you've experienced something like that, you can do a higher level of work the next time around, and I'm not too particular about that kind of common sense at least, so I just keep handing out work to people who want to do it and who are capable of it.
4Gamer:
That's great, but it sounds like it might be a bit of a challenge for the person who finally puts it all together.
Mr. Kuroki:
Well, but that's something we have to do.
4Gamer:
But you're going to let them do that?
Mr. Kuroki:
In my experience, most people don't start dealing with external companies until they've reached a certain level of experience, but in our case, we let people experience that kind of thing from a relatively early stage.
4Gamer:
There are probably people who do their best to follow up on this, aren't there?
Mr. Kuroki:
Of course (laughs). That's something we both have to do.
4Gamer:
No, I understand. It would never work without followers, but it's good that you dare to do that.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right. In development, the title of director is at the top, isn't it? On site, I want people to reach that director position while they are as young as possible. I think it's better to have a longer 'director period'.
4Gamer:
Well, in the last interview, the Tokyo team members all said that SNK's internal structure is unusual.
Mr. Oda:
(Looking towards the Tokyo group) Is that so?
(Tokyo group nodding in unison)
4Gamer:
They all said that it's not easy to find something like that.
Tokyo Group:
That much (laughs).
Compared to our own time, youngsters these days are really intelligent.
4Gamer: Well, that kind of company colour is what makes SNK what it is today, and I want you to cherish that.
Mr. Kuroki:
Well, we were made that way by our seniors too.
4Gamer:
The old SNK?
Mr. Kuroki:
Yes, that's right.
4Gamer:
So that's how it was.
Mr. Kuroki:
I was entrusted with bigger and bigger jobs, so I think that kind of thing has become the norm.
Mr. Oda:
Oh, but ... I'm 50 years old now. But when we joined SNK in the past, when we were around 20 years old, there were no 50-year-olds in the development team.
Mr. Kuroki:
Come to think of it, there weren't (laughs).
Mr. Oda:
The oldest was a little over 30, so I think we were all really working together like a club.
Mr. Kuroki:
That's certainly true... To be honest, at that time, we were all 30 years old...
Mr. Oda:
That's right. Uncles are...
Mr. Kuroki:
I thought they were... I've far surpassed my boss at that time, and I wonder how the new kids look at me now (laughs).
Mr. Oda:
If you're 30 years old now, you're still young.
4Gamer:
I've always been in the media, but when I graduated and became a magazine editor, the editor-in-chief at the time was 34 years old. At the time I thought, "Wow, he's an adult...". Come to think of it.
Mr. Oda:
Yes, yes (laughs). And because we were all young, we were all very bossy. It was like something was always on the edge (laughs).
Mr. Kuroki:
That's not everyone, it's just you (laughs).
Mr. Oda:
No, no, no, right?
4Gamer:
I read an interview with Oda-san in our portal the other day, and he said that he joined the company thinking it would be enough to eat for about five years, but for someone like that, he was pretty arrogant (laughs).
Mr. Kuroki:
He was the most pompous of all my peers.
4Gamer:
And now you're like this.
Mr. Kuroki:
It's unbelievable.
4Gamer:
Well, in the past there wasn't a lot of information, and it was like you chose a company on the basis of momentum and groove, but nowadays you can find out all kinds of information, and as I know from doing interviews myself, there are also young people who are concerned about benefits and stability.
From what I've heard so far, there seems to be an atmosphere that many young people like the former will jump in.
Mr. Oda:
No, we want both.
4Gamer:
But on the flip side of this characteristic, it seems like it would be tough for those who don't have anything they want to do.
Mr. Kuroki:
I don't think people who don't have anything they want to do would come in the first place, so it's probably fine!
4Gamer:
Are you two going to be doing interviews as well?
Mr.Oda:
Yes, we're doing our best. Fujishige* and I say every day, "Our wages come from interviews!".
*Fujishige Kazuhiro, General Manager of SNK's second software development division, who also appeared in the previous interview. During this interview, he was listening to the conversation with a grin on his face stationed off camera.
(Everyone laughs)
Mr. Oda:
There are days when I do almost nothing but interviews.
4Gamer:
So you do that much?
Mr. Oda:
On many days, I talk so much that I don't want to see anyone anymore.
Mr. Kuroki:
That's a lot these days.
4Gamer:
Are there any particular characteristics of the people who come for interviews these days?
Mr. Oda:
Well, I compare them to when I was younger, so I think they're all very intelligent (laughs).
Mr. Kuroki:
I really think so (laughs). They're really solid.
4Gamer:
I can see what you mean.
Mr. Oda:
I only became able to speak like they do in interviews when I was about 30 years old. They speak very difficult things.
Mr. Kuroki:
I get nervous when they ask me questions|I'm thrilled when asked what to do [?].
4Gamer:
You're still young and you live your life thinking about that? I think so.
Mr. Oda:
When I was in primary school, Gundam plastic models were popular. I was seriously building Gundam plastic models back then, and I'm still doing the same thing today. Sometimes when I realise that, I think "Seriously?".
4Gamer:
No, no, that's work (laughs). But really, young people today are very smart...
Mr. Oda:
I'm just giving you an idea, but back then we could only speak in hiragana. Nowadays, all the new graduates who come to take the job speak in kanji. And the sentences are long.
Mr. Kuroki:
They also learn their jobs quickly.
Mr. Oda:
Sometimes I wish this person could be my boss.
Mr Kuroki:
During interviews, I would make notes saying, "I see, that's how you think about it" (laughs).
4Gamer:
By the way, what kind of things do you look for?
Mr. Oda:
Right now we are trying to recruit a really diverse range of people, so the first thing we look at is whether or not they can work together with everyone. Also, I think it's better to have people of all types join us.
Mr. Kuroki:
I think it's good if they have some strengths. If there were only sharp people, the development would be a mess...
Mr. Oda:
That's exactly like when we were there.
Mr. Kuroki:
Yes (laughs). I think it's better to have a variety of colours now.
4Gamer:
People who are sharp tend to be small unless there are several of them, but if you exceed a certain percentage, the organisation becomes more and more like this...
Mr. Kuroki:
That's right (laughs).
Mr. Oda:
Well, as I said earlier, for those who have experience, no matter how modest you look at it, now is the time to come. If you want to express yourself, by all means.
Mr. Kuroki:
If I heard that now, I would go.
Mr. Oda:
Recently, there have been a lot of big productions, and it takes four or five years of development to complete a single work at... so, if you finish that work and you want to do the next one with the same group, and the director A at that time is the same director A for the next one, the person who thinks that I can do better won't get a chance. SNK can provide that chance.
4Gamer:
Whenever I talk to people in the industry, I always think, for example, if it takes three years to develop one game, even if you work for ten years, you'll only be involved in three games. If you're not good at it, you might be involved in two projects, or zero if the project is cancelled halfway through. I think it may be much more difficult to build up a career than in the past.
Mr. Oda:
That's right.
4Gamer:
That's why it's good to hear stories like the one you just told us.
Mr. Kuroki:
If they don't grow up quickly, we'll be retired too.
4Gamer:
In the next 10 years, we can make three games.
Mr. Oda:
Yeah...? Yes, that's right...
4Gamer:
What? Is it possible that there is a parallel?
Mr. Oda:
Nowadays, after releasing a game, you have to manage it, don't you? It's not as easy as it used to be (laughs).
4Gamer:
It's true that you don't just sell the game and that's it.
Mr. Oda:
That's why we don't have a chance to have a master-up launch. In the past, there used to be one every time.
Mr. Kuroki:
That's right.
Mr. Oda:
Nowadays, we don't even know when the end date is.
Mr. Kuroki:
When the next project starts, some people leave the company, one by one. It's as if the number of people is decreasing before you know it, so there is no indication of when the project will end.
Mr. Oda:
If you don't know how long you have to keep practising this game, then it ends when you say, "There's no future in playing this game anymore".
4Gamer:
That wasn't the case in the past.
Mr. Oda:
In the old days. Well, we were in arcades, so we had to release ROMs in the MVS cabinet one after another. I can say this now, but our sales people told us that it would be a problem if we kept on doing that for too long (laughs).
4Gamer:
I know what you mean (laughs).
Mr. Oda:
Of course, shops are happy if you make software that lasts a long time.
4Gamer:
Some of our staff, for example, play Pokémon and FF7 over and over again, but they don't contribute financially to the industry at all, or something like that... (laughs).
I used to work on paper magazines, but as soon as the hellish deadline was over, I'd just go about my business for a week or so, doing nothing at all.
Mr. Kuroki:
I want it to end, don't I? The same goes for development.
4Gamer:
I want to have a line that says, "This is the end".
But, of course, the team doesn't suddenly disappear after launch, does it?
Mr. Kuroki:
That's right.
4Gamer:
Does that mean that the more things you release, the more people you have?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right. We also have to constantly maintain the development environment, so there are physical difficulties as well.
Mr. Kuroki:
This is a simple story, but it's really hard work (laughs).
4Gamer:
That's true… in the old days, when you mastered up, it seemed like everyone went out for a drink?
Mr. Oda:
Yes, that's right. Well, since we are of a different generation, I thought it might not be a good idea to invite people to have a... drink, so I tried not to organise any drinking parties, but recently I found out that surprisingly there are many people who want to go out drinking.
4Gamer:
What do you mean "discovered"?
Mr. Oda:
But I wonder if it would be... an harassment if I asked them...
4Gamer:
I'd be concerned about harassment too, wouldn't I?
Mr. Kuroki:
It's completely an old man's problem.
4Gamer:
I often hesitate, wondering if it's okay to say this or not.
Not aiming for a 'clean circle', Osaka will focus on utilising existing IP
4Gamer:
But back to the topic at hand, you are going to be working on both major new IPs and utilising existing IPs in the future, aren't you?
Mr. Oda:
Osaka is more focused on existing IPs. What kind of development can we do on top of that?
4Gamer:
That's your main mission, and you're aiming for 400 people, isn't that pretty good?
Mr. Oda:
That's right. We have a lot of assets.
4Gamer:
We have quite a lot, don't we? But are you planning to work on almost all of them?
Mr. Oda:
No, as you'd expect, we prioritise them. There are quite a lot of minor titles, after all. We'll start with the major titles first.
4Gamer:
Major titles first. I see. So there is a borderline somewhere between major and non-major?
Mr. Oda:
There are a lot of titles that are on the borderline, or rather, on the line of elimination (laughs).
4Gamer:
By the way, I'm really curious as to which titles fall into that category (laughs).
Mr. Oda:
Hmm, this varies from person to person...
4Gamer:
Yes.
Mr. Oda:
For example, "The Last Blade".
4Gamer:
Yes.
Mr. Oda:
It's a title that's on the bottom of my list, but for some people it has an unusually high priority, even higher than "KOF".
4Gamer:
I understand, because I liked it a bit too.
Mr. Oda:
There are quite a few titles that people have a strong attachment to, so I think it's really dangerous not to handle them carefully.
4Gamer:
By the way, how do you decide in the end?
Mr. Oda:
Well, in the end, it's my own decision (laughs). Well, I listen to the opinions of various people.
4Gamer:
You can't just say it's a majority decision. Of course numbers are important because it's a business, but I don't think it would be a good idea to decide by majority vote.
Mr. Oda:
That's right.
The original method of production was really like intuition, spirit and... wasn't it?
4Gamer:
I'm sure that's true (laughs).
Mr. Oda:
That's what it was like...
Yes, that's right. Have you heard of "BURIKI ONE"?
4Gamer:
"BURIKI ONE"? I'm sorry, I don't think I know it...
Mr. Oda:
It was a mysterious fighting game where you moved with the left button and attacked with the right lever.
4Gamer:
Ah! That's how I understood it.
Mr. Oda:
I thought everyone was drinking when we were making it (laughs).
4Gamer:
I wonder who thought of that (laughs).
Mr. Kuroki:
If I say too much, I'll get in trouble (laughs).
4Gamer:
I think it's amazing that it has been commercialised.
Mr. Kuroki:
In many ways it's a legendary game.
Mr. Oda:
Recently, we've been able to get a lot of data, so to a certain extent we've been able to get it right. Can I talk about "FATAL FURY 3"?
4Gamer:
By all means.
Mr. Oda:
In the "FATAL FURY" series, there is a game called "FATAL FURY 3". Well, we were involved in it, but it failed in terms of business at the time. And in "FATAL FURY", there was a line shift, like a line in the back and a line in the front. It was a little bit like expressing a three-dimensional effect.
4Gamer:
Yes, that's how we expressed the three-dimensionality of 2D fighting.
Mr. Oda:
So I said that "FATAL FURY 2" was played with two lines, one at the back and one at the front, so I said that "FATAL FURY 3" would have three lines and increased the number to three. We thought it was stupid, but we did it.
Mr. Kuroki:
I told him to stop right there (laughs).
(All laugh).
Mr. Oda:
I wondered how I would operate it, but I couldn't really operate it. But it was fun, wasn't it? It was interesting, but... well, at the time, everyone thought it was a good idea, so that's what we did.
Mr. Kuroki:
And that was around the time when 3D games were just starting to appear. I think there was a longing for that, too.
4Gamer:
Well, moving lines is a royal road, isn't it?
Mr. Kuroki:
It's a pain in the ass to make.
4Gamer:
Which parts are the main ones?
Mr. Oda:
It's just at an angle that makes it look uncool from an artistic point of view.
4Gamer:
Oh, I see.
Mr. Oda:
It was very difficult to draw the pixel art. We were already fighting with each other half the time.
4Gamer:
But, as with the story of "The Last Blade", IPs from the old days of enthusiasm weren't measured by KPIs or anything like that, so I feel like it's better not to use numbers in the same way.
Mr. Oda:
It's also the case that we couldn't use them because we didn't get them. There are good and bad aspects.
4Gamer:
Of course there are. But I feel that if everything is based on numbers, then the weird and tasty things like that will fall away.
Mr. Oda:
That's true. It just becomes more and more "beautiful circles".
4Gamer:
It's a pain and an itch for the data too. That's why I'd like SNK to focus on both.
Mr. Kuroki:
That's why we want all kinds of people. Even people who say strange things.
4Gamer:
So you're going to be more active in Osaka than ever after this, while continuing your recruitment activities in that area as well?
Mr. Oda:
That's right.
Mr. Kuroki:
We are looking forward to working with people who want to create something.
4Gamer:
Thank you very much.
――3 June 2022.
hope you are ok dude
