Genre Classification in (Retro) Video Games

boogiepop
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Genre Classification in (Retro) Video Games Oct 24, 2021 8:52:57 GMT pimsbury likes this

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Post by boogiepop on Oct 24, 2021 8:52:57 GMT

So I've been thinking about the genre names that we give to games and have been wondering if there were a better way to go about it. It seems to me that sometimes the naming conventions do not accurately describe the games at all. Puzzle games, for example, are not picross or crossword games, and they make me think a hell of a lot more than so-called strategy games, so aren't they actually real-time strategy games? Sometimes the camera becomes a major factor (first-person), and other times we throw in the names of countries (JRPG). It's a bit of a mess. Can we come up with something better?

Note: I know modern games have the ability to blend genres to a much greater extent, hence the "retro" in the title.

So here's what I was thinking...

Temporal Importance

Does the game (generally) give the player ample time to make decisions? If so, the game is "temporally detached," and if not then it's "temporally restricted." (I'm just throwing descriptions at the wall. I'm not at all entertaining the idea that they are actually any good.) Genres like the RPG, Adventure game, board/card, etc. would all fall under the tent of the former whereas RTS, fighting, and platformers would fall under the latter's.

Further separations could be made based on whether or not the game employs a great deal of dialogue, what the game's primary goal is (point accumulation, task completion, beating the snot out of your opponent(s)), and so on. With each of these distinctions, a further separation could be made which breaks games into smaller and smaller groups.

Pinball - Point Accumulation, Temporally Restricted, Story-free

Adventure - Task Completion, Temporally Detached, Story-driven

Beat 'em Up - Task Completion, Temporally Restricted, Story-free

Fighting - Competitive, Temporally Restricted, Story-free

I think these divisions make sense for the most part. It would put stuff like Puyo Puyo Tsuu together with Street Fighter II, which is where I think they belong. (Of course, they could further be sub-divided on whether you control some kind of avatar, and so on. But at least the qualities they share would be recognized.)

What do you all think? Is this doable? Is there maybe a better way to go about it?

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Genre Classification in (Retro) Video Games Oct 24, 2021 18:26:11 GMT via mobile boogiepop likes this

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Post by pimsbury on Oct 24, 2021 18:26:11 GMT

Good luck! For some reason genre classification seems to start hot debates! My favorite molotov to throw into the internet is "Zelda is/isn't an rpg" and then watch rapid fans fight.

One note, genre definitions change over decades so there's always room for adaptation!

Sometimes these subgenres overcomplicate a discussion tthough. When I try to talk about shmups with the uninitiated it sounds like I'm speaking gibberish when I bring up terms like bullet hell, Compile shooter, dual stick shooter, 1cc, point chaining ect.

Normal people just call puzzle games puzzle games haha. Hell, I have one friend who calls ZELDA a puzzle game 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

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Genre Classification in (Retro) Video Games Oct 25, 2021 10:01:05 GMT

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Post by boogiepop on Oct 25, 2021 10:01:05 GMT

Oct 24, 2021 18:26:11 GMT pimsbury said:

Good luck! For some reason genre classification seems to start hot debates! My favorite molotov to throw into the internet is "Zelda is/isn't an rpg" and then watch rapid fans fight.

One note, genre definitions change over decades so there's always room for adaptation!

Sometimes these subgenres overcomplicate a discussion tthough. When I try to talk about shmups with the uninitiated it sounds like I'm speaking gibberish when I bring up terms like bullet hell, Compile shooter, dual stick shooter, 1cc, point chaining ect.

Normal people just call puzzle games puzzle games haha. Hell, I have one friend who calls ZELDA a puzzle game 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

Zelda a puzzle game? Kids these days! Everyone knows it's a beat 'em up.

You're definitely right about genre classification being such a difficult thing to pin down. I guess I'm just curious to see what we can come up with, even if it turns out to be a complete mess which ultimately finds itself in the waste bin. And in a way, isn't anything using just a little bit of methodology better than the convoluted mess we currently have?

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Genre Classification in (Retro) Video Games Oct 25, 2021 14:51:55 GMT boogiepop likes this

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Post by Riko on Oct 25, 2021 14:51:55 GMT

Interesting to think about Booige. I quite like the genres we already have but agree they could do with something extra to narrow down more what type of game it is.

I like using "arcade" for "temporally restricted" and maybe "strategy" for "Temporally Detached"

I remember back in the 8 bit computer days you had "Adventure Games" that were text adventures. Then you got these platform games where you explored a castle (for example) and you had to collect keys and take objects to certain places to solve puzzles so you could explore further - basically the same thing but in real time and those got called "arcade adventures" and the original ones "text adventures"

So going by this logic you would have puzzle games and arcade puzzle games. You could call the slower puzzle games "strategy puzzle games" to distinguish further

You can also use "action" instead of "arcade". I remember on the SNES you got "action RPGS" to distinguish the real-time ones from the turn-based ones. I think that worked quite well.

To my great shame I have never played Zelda properly (just had a quick go on a few of the games) but I think it could be an "Arcade Adventure" from what I've seen

or maybe an "arcade adventure RPG" NGFL_hmm

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Genre Classification in (Retro) Video Games Oct 25, 2021 15:42:48 GMT Riko likes this

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Post by boogiepop on Oct 25, 2021 15:42:48 GMT

Oct 25, 2021 14:51:55 GMT Riko said:

Interesting to think about Booige. I quite like the genres we already have but agree they could do with something extra to narrow down more what type of game it is.

I like using "arcade" for "temporally restricted" and maybe "strategy" for "Temporally Detached"

I remember back in the 8 bit computer days you had "Adventure Games" that were text adventures. Then you got these platform games where you explored a castle (for example) and you had to collect keys and take objects to certain places to solve puzzles so you could explore further - basically the same thing but in real time and those got called "arcade adventures" and the original ones "text adventures"

So going by this logic you would have puzzle games and arcade puzzle games. You could call the slower puzzle games "strategy puzzle games" to distinguish further

You can also use "action" instead of "arcade". I remember on the SNES you got "action RPGS" to distinguish the real-time ones from the turn-based ones. I think that worked quite well.

To my great shame I have never played Zelda properly (just had a quick go on a few of the games) but I think it could be an "Arcade Adventure" from what I've seen

or maybe an "arcade adventure RPG" NGFL_hmm

Ah, the halcyon days of playing TEXT adventures on my computer. It usually just boiled down to me typing "Go West" and dying instantly, but whatever. I was young and not very sophisticated. (The latter hasn't changed.) I had both those games and stuff like Maniac Mansion on my C64, so I guess I didn't realize that the fully text ones had to come first. I see what you mean now, though; Maniac Mansion (and its ilk) definitely involve a hint of action in them.

I definitely agree that "action" and "strategy" are much better terms than stuff like "temporally detached." I guess my intent was to reverse engineer it all to get at the core of what "action" and "strategy" could or should actually mean.

As for puzzle games, yeah, I guess so. Now if we have a head-to-head Sudoku game or one with a timer, it guess it suddenly switches genres. Hmm...

I've actually never played a Zelda to completion either, so I share your shame. Actually, I don't think I've ever completed any RPG. I've a real hard time maintaining interest.

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Genre Classification in (Retro) Video Games Oct 25, 2021 20:10:08 GMT via mobile Riko and boogiepop like this

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Post by pimsbury on Oct 25, 2021 20:10:08 GMT

Ok I think you guys need an intervention. We need to talk about this zelda problem! 😂😂

One problem with these classifications is that the definitions are rapidly changing and anytime casual gamers or gaming journalists start using terms they change all over again to mean something completely different.

So another guy at work asked what I play, and I said I primarily play fighting games right now. He defines fighting games as anything with fighting and thinks I was talking about games like Dynasty Warriors.

This dude who is about 30 had no idea what I was talking about when I mentioned KOF, Samurai Shodown, or even Street Fighter!

Sorry about the bitchfest, it just seems like every generation has a completely different vocabulary to work with and we're all speaking different languages, which brings us full circle to the topic!

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Genre Classification in (Retro) Video Games Oct 25, 2021 20:22:42 GMT pimsbury likes this

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Post by boogiepop on Oct 25, 2021 20:22:42 GMT

Oct 25, 2021 20:10:08 GMT pimsbury said:

Ok I think you guys need an intervention. We need to talk about this zelda problem! 😂😂

One problem with these classifications is that the definitions are rapidly changing and anytime casual gamers or gaming journalists start using terms they change all over again to mean something completely different.

So another guy at work asked what I play, and I said I primarily play fighting games right now. He defines fighting games as anything with fighting and thinks I was talking about games like Dynasty Warriors.

This dude who is about 30 had no idea what I was talking about when I mentioned KOF, Samurai Shodown, or even Street Fighter!

Sorry about the bitchfest, it just seems like every generation has a completely different vocabulary to work with and we're all speaking different languages, which brings us full circle to the topic!

I remember people in the 90's calling beat 'em ups fighting games. (Or was it the other way around?) I always found that odd.

I can get someone not knowing KOF and Sam Sho. But Street Fighter?

Let's see... How can I stir the pot even more? Oh, I know! Zelda is an overhead Metroidvania, isn't it? I mean, you retread your steps to unlock areas with your newly found equipment, right? Totally Metroidvania.

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Genre Classification in (Retro) Video Games Oct 26, 2021 3:07:44 GMT via mobile

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Post by pimsbury on Oct 26, 2021 3:07:44 GMT

I think the fighting game and beat em up terms get swapped around a lot now still! But yeah, not knowing street fighter? BLASPHEMOUS! He's a strictly JRPG guy though, so I guess I can't blame him too much.

Careful, you're going to summon a legion of angry Nintendo fans here! They get pissy about those games!

Last Edit: Oct 26, 2021 3:08:19 GMT by pimsbury

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Genre Classification in (Retro) Video Games Oct 26, 2021 13:10:32 GMT boogiepop and pimsbury like this

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Post by Riko on Oct 26, 2021 13:10:32 GMT

Oct 25, 2021 15:42:48 GMT boogiepop said:

Ah, the halcyon days of playing TEXT adventures on my computer. It usually just boiled down to me typing "Go West" and dying instantly, but whatever. I was young and not very sophisticated. (The latter hasn't changed.) I had both those games and stuff like Maniac Mansion on my C64, so I guess I didn't realize that the fully text ones had to come first. I see what you mean now, though; Maniac Mansion (and its ilk) definitely involve a hint of action in them.

I definitely agree that "action" and "strategy" are much better terms than stuff like "temporally detached." I guess my intent was to reverse engineer it all to get at the core of what "action" and "strategy" could or should actually mean.

As for puzzle games, yeah, I guess so. Now if we have a head-to-head Sudoku game or one with a timer, it guess it suddenly switches genres. Hmm...

I've actually never played a Zelda to completion either, so I share your shame. Actually, I don't think I've ever completed any RPG. I've a real hard time maintaining interest.

I freaking loved those text adventures at the time. Your mind definitely did a lot of the work to buid a world in your mind. There was also a lot of "I don't know how to... KILL MONSTER","I don't know how to....PUSH BOX" etc

I should keep quiet about this but I wish someone would release a keyboard for Neo Geo so it can have some text based games maybe with some sprites and music thrown in for atmosphere and maybe even a simple games creation cartridge. Very niche I know!

Yes that's difficult with the sub-categories where if you could just use "arcade" then that would exclude a timed Sudoku game. That would be a variation in strategy - e.g. timed strategy. Chess is still chess whether it's timed or not. It's never going to be an arcade style game. I don't think using your current system you would be able to come up with a logical way to cover all game-types without going into a ton of extra detail. I think it would cover most of them though NGFL_tup

I just haven't got round to playing Zelda yet. I really think I will like it - especially the SNES game but its def possible I won't! I'm the same as you with RPGS. I started Final Fantasy 7 about 5 times and got onto the 2nd disc every time then kind of moved on to playing something else. It amazes me - those people who can play every game in the series. I enjoyed the gameplay for about 8 hours but not for the 35+ hours it would take to finish it.

pimsbury that guy reminds me of when I used to see the Japanese game charts in magazines in the late 90s. In the top-20 there would be about 12 JRPGS. Maybe 3 Dating Simulators and then a solitary "Street fighter " or "Sonic" somewhere down the bottom of the chart. You kind of think Japanese people are mad on Sonic or SF but really they are mad on RPGS (well back then anyway!)

Last Edit: Oct 26, 2021 13:15:00 GMT by Riko

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Genre Classification in (Retro) Video Games Oct 26, 2021 13:29:56 GMT pimsbury likes this

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Post by boogiepop on Oct 26, 2021 13:29:56 GMT

Oct 26, 2021 13:10:32 GMT Riko said:

I freaking loved those text adventures at the time. Your mind definitely did a lot of the work to buid a world in your mind. There was also a lot of "I don't know how to... KILL MONSTER","I don't know how to....PUSH BOX" etc

I should keep quiet about this but I wish someone would release a keyboard for Neo Geo so it can have some text based games maybe with some sprites and music thrown in for atmosphere and maybe even a simple games creation cartridge. Very niche I know!

Yes that's difficult with the sub-categories where if you could just use "arcade" then that would exclude a timed Sudoku game. That would be a variation in strategy - e.g. timed strategy. Chess is still chess whether it's timed or not. It's never going to be an arcade style game. I don't think using your current system you would be able to come up with a logical way to cover all game-types without going into a ton of extra detail. I think it would cover most of them though NGFL_tup

I just haven't got round to playing Zelda yet. I really think I will like it - especially the SNES game but its def possible I won't! I'm the same as you with RPGS. I started Final Fantasy 7 about 5 times and got onto the 2nd disc every time then kind of moved on to playing something else. It amazes me - those people who can play every game in the series. I enjoyed the gameplay for about 8 hours but not for the 35+ hours it would take to finish it.

I would never have thought anyone would pine for text adventures on the Neo, but now that you mention it, it could be kinda neat. I think with even just the Crossed Swords graphics and audio repurposed you could go a long way into making a fun little adventure. As for the keyboard... remapped mahjong controllers? (Yeah, like anyone is mental enough to waste the cash for one of those.)

I did the exact same thing with Final Fantasy 7, but only the once. I gave FF8 a second go a few months ago, but, yeah, those RPGs just drag after a while. I don't feel like I'm reading a good book like when I'm playing an adventure game, nor am I getting much in the way of action either. And they don't challenge my brain like a strategy game can, so I just kinda go numb and mumble to myself, "Oh, wow. Another random encounter. I wonder if I should have all my party members pick off the monsters one at a time. Zzzz"

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Genre Classification in (Retro) Video Games Oct 26, 2021 14:56:06 GMT via mobile

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Post by pimsbury on Oct 26, 2021 14:56:06 GMT

Oh man, I used to play tons of RPGs a few years ago, before I got re-addicted to fighting games and shmups. It's really hard to jump onto any slower games now that I'm used to that instant gratification of arcade games.

Since I rarely finished RPGs in the past I set out to actually finish a bunch of old ones.

The new final fantasy 7 remake might be worth checking out though, I thought they did a good job at minimizing random encounters finally and making the gameplay a little more fast paced. AND it wasn't a very long game which was sweet.