Post by neon1 on Jun 14, 2024 8:57:45 GMT
I officially voted for the SNES, but it's really complicated. I want to make a really long post because like 2 years of thought went into my thinking about the 16 bit console wars along with playing probably like a 100 games. Um, not for this thread or something, I just was doing this on my own thinking no one else is really caring about this old situation necessarily. So, I want to make it long for people curious on one non-computer scientist/engineers take on hardware and software from the PoV of a consumer and how I got SNES out of all that, but I put it in spoilers so it doesn't disrupt the flow of the thread.
I also really need a distraction from all the studying I should be doing and this seems perfect for that. The short answer is all of them rate above like many consoles that came before or since, but there still was a clear winner to me after all that. Also the Neo Geo is second and it's close with the SNES so no worries about the Neo Geo not getting enough attention.
I also really need a distraction from all the studying I should be doing and this seems perfect for that. The short answer is all of them rate above like many consoles that came before or since, but there still was a clear winner to me after all that. Also the Neo Geo is second and it's close with the SNES so no worries about the Neo Geo not getting enough attention.
So, the 16 bit console war. I have broken this into sections, personal history, hardware comparsion, and finale conclusion/software comparison.
Personal history
Well, lets start at the very beginning of all games for me, the NES, a system I barely remember, but the fact that I still do remember it pretty vividly at times is important to me. It was just things like Duck Hunt, and Super Mario 1, 2, and 3, but they left a strong impression.
It was only natural, that when the time came for a new machine, I would get the new Super Nintendo for Mario and things of that like. I remember many games like Super Mario World and A Link to the Past being incredibly epic and left a really strong impression. I was very happy with my Super Nintendo and played many games on it. Other highlights were Mega Man X2 and X3, the X3 cartridge which I still have to this day.
Then, Sonic arrived, and I would look at game magazines for images from things like Vectorman and it had a style and substance that was very cool and interesting to me. Before I knew it, I was lost in the world of Ecco the Dolphin and desperately trying to get a friend to help me finally beat Sonic 2 to see the end credits. (I don't know if we actually beat it, but I remember the scene of Sonic jumping on to the Death Egg from Tails's plane, but I also kind of remember getting to giant robotnik and maybe dying there because we didn't understand you could just wait to hit him safely once he lands from his jumping targeted attack and died repeatedly on his hands as he moved back and forward trying to hit him).
So the genesis became an important thing, mainly for Sonic and related things.
However, I kept playing my SNES and ended up getting many classics RPGs such as Earthbound, Super Mario RPG, and Lufia 2 for it.
Fast forward to many years later, I decide to play some old games, and what jumps out at me first is the SNES classic. Oh wow, the SNES classic it has like Final Fantasy 6 and Secret of Mana and stuff and I played those right away. However, since the mini console came with so many games, I decided to play a bunch of games on there and ended up beating my first contra game and it made me realize how the SNES was really a diverse machine.
That's when I realized, despite having played all those games, it felt like something was missing, and this is something I mentioned in another thread, which is the sheer thrill of an epic gaming showdown where you are totally into the game and beating it feels like an intense thing that sticks with you, and despite having many amazing things, I think the SNES always just made me feel really "comfortable." Specifically, the games that made me feel the intensity were on the genesis.
So I got a sega genesis Mini, and at first I played it safe, not wanting to go into the "old" action games without game saves or checkpoints and instead the classic, if you lose, you start all the way from the beginning of the game. I just thought, there's no way I can do that again.
However, steadily and surely, I made progress, beating game after game, including all the sonic games I hadn't beaten and some which aren't strictly genesis like Sonic CD and Dark Wizard. Every time, what I found was Sega does what Nintendon't, Castlevania? Better than the genesis. Contra? Better on the genesis. Ghouls and Ghosts? Incredible on the SNES but I just flat out prefer the Genesis version which is a different game like the previous 2 just made specifically for genesis. I was getting minor bursts of that epic feeling every time.
Then one way or another, I found out the Turbografx existed, and I thought, what the? So, I got Valis for the Switch and was blown away. The cutscenes in an action game were unlike anything I had seen in Sonic and Mario, and although it wasn't technically they're mascot platformer, Bonk was, I still found it fascinating and it totally shredded the likes of Mega Man and stuff for me. Mega Man always beat SNES mario for me because it was just more cool, summoning Zero and having him lightsaber out a few robots was just good times, but now you had 3x the power of that in the Turbografx 16 (well, with CD add on).
I still rewatch the confrontation between Reiko and Yuko from Valis I on the PC engine sometimes just to remember how incredible that was and how it brings a whole new dimension to gaming. That led to the decision to get a modded PC engine that would play Turbografx games, and I was all set to play what clearly had to be the best 16 bit gaming machine.
But then, I saw a random Neo Geo video, and all I can really remember thinking was, oh no! I thought I just got the best 16 gaming machine in the Turbografx but this is clearly the winner! I tried to say, it's ok, the Turbografx is like 90% of the style of the Neo Geo, I still have basically the same thing, who cares about the extra 10%?
But no, I couldn't resist, and since Neo Geo consoles were expensive, I relied on the old reliable solution which I had already planned to do with the Turbografx which was get the mini and play the games, by getting what remains an incredible steal IMO the Neo Geo Mini. Yes, the graphics aren't pixel perfect on a TV, but that's the only downside and they still clearly look like the arcade level which is the most important thing IMO.
I immediately played Blazing Star, as I wanted to play games I was familiar with which included shmups, and it was a surreal entry into the world of Neo Geo, as I had infinite credits but I've found that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the game, and I did. Then I played Metal Slug 1 as I had played Metal Slug 1 back in the arcades and thought yeah, this is kinda the Neo Geo I think? I got to the final mission and it was basically good like I remembered.
More time passes, and I realize the old itch for old games is back and this time I go straight to the genesis. I finish old genesis games I hadn't finished on the mini 1 and get a mini 2 and start playing those, but somewhere in the middle of Ristar I get tired. I think, ok, just because it's on the genesis and made by Sega or something doesn't mean I'm going to like it, necessarily, and I start to think of all the Turbografx and Neo Geo games I could be playing.
But I don't have the Turbo mini, so I play the Neo Geo Mini instead, like, all of it. I start with games I'm familiar with but then I'm just playing anything that looks interesting, Samurai Showdown 5 Special! Crossed Swords! Sudddenly it's apparent to me that it's all glorious and worth a shot, and it seems the Neo Geo is set to be the best console of all time.
I think the core of the appeal of the Neo Geo is that it follows in a direct line from Valis for me as in, we're going to make this even more cool for you, bigger badder better theme. If I have to kinda wait 20 minutes for the fun to happen for SMW, it's 10 minutes for Sonic, like 2 minutes for Valis, and it's just a continuous overflow with Neo Geo games because they're all so immediate, just like games designed for arcades always kinda were IMO. The next part dives into hardware though.
Hardware comparsion
I'm not an expert, but I was playing Sonic 3 and Knuckles and I kept thinking, I get that this is just "not" the same level as the SNES on some level, but why does it kinda, look better to me? I mean, standing in a zone, I get it, but with movement, the pixels and screens scrolling and blurring, the genesis just seems to come alive when there's movement. I tried to find an explanation for this and watched some Game Sack's videos, and he goes in depth to various consoles, as well as the Neo Geo, and I watch all of them.
Basically, the SNES is superior to the Genesis in many technical categories, except for speed, which is apparently where Blast Processing comes from. Now I don't know the hardware, but could the faster processor be part of which Sonic games look so good in motion? SNES's mode 7 is cool but it tends to work at a moderate speed to me, even in F zero it's just sort of in the background. I feel a level of polish emanating the Genesis simply because games appear to look better once they're moving. Static images from the genesis don't tell the whole story for me.
Well, how does that factor into the Turbografx? Well despite not having played more than handful of titles, they also seem to look good in motion, like Psychic Storm and the like. All in all, they communicate a more arcadey feel.
Then comes the Neo Geo, well the breakdown that I understand is that it really is not necessarily a 24 bit machine but rather an 8 bit and 16 bit machine together or something, moreover, what a large part of the game size is used for in my understanding is all the sprites and animations.
So that does that bode bad for the Neo Geo? No, on the contrary! The emphasis on sprites and animation I think makes for some of the most fantastic games of the 16 bit era. In fact, it seems to me that SNK, Sega, and NEC were all competing with 1980s Nintendo, but in the 90s, Nintendo made sort of "softer" games and more RPGs and a very colorful machine as evidenced by games like Super Mario World 2. They wanted the world to be a gentler place, but IMO, 1990s Nintendo is just not the same level of cool as 1980s Nintendo. 1980s Nintendo has SMB3 which is blazed into memory almost like a 90s genesis game as being iconic and fun. So the SNES was doing something different and sacrificed arcade cool in many ways to SNK, Sega, and NEC. It was a bad choice it seemed to me, at the time, then I felt the other way, but two games persuaded me there was actually method to Nintendo's madness of save your game play the level over and over now and softer approach.
Software and Finale Conclusion
Star Ocean and Tales of Phantasia, that's when I realized I had my answer to the 16 bit console wars. Two games made by basically the same team that made games also for Telenet Japan back for the Turbografx, these 48 meg cartridge behemoths also revealed important hardware bits of the later Snes. There was more than just the FX chip, there was data compression, advanced sound techniques and other things to utterly maximize the SNES. It occurred to me then that I had played my SNES back in the day well into 1996 even after the release of the PS1 and other things, for things like Lufia 2 and Earthbound. I checked and those games retailed I think for like 75 and 70 dollars, which was incredibly expensive at the time. Lufia 2 is the most expensive game I ever got at retail, but I think it was probabaly because of the meg size.
I think these late SNES games really pushed the limits of hardware, and with incredible OSTs that were basically better than many Saturn and PS1 games in quality, the SNES had evolved along the lines of how gaming would eventually evolve.
So can Zelda 3, Super Mario World, and Mega Man X still beat the Neo Geo, or even Valis, or Sonic? Well, maybe not! But Zelda 3 in particular created the architecture for a new kind of game, the epic RPG, with incredible story presentation and art and good design of course as well.
That may not be enough to top even Street Fighter 2 on the SNES or genesis for sheer fun factor, but it was a step in a new direction, and one that would reach it's fulfillment later on with the late SNES catalogue.
Given how popular RPGs would become like World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy, I think the late SNES was actually the creation of a whole new idea in gaming, at least in popular consciousness, which would last well into modern times. So Nintendo did kind of have the right idea, it's just they themselves didn't totally have the exact hardware or software needed to support it in the beginning.
So minus basically a single of few companies from Japan and really America (for later) as well, the Neo Geo is truly forever IMO as the best experience in gaming, and for practical purposes, it might as well be, at least for me. However, I can't ignore those really addicting RPGs and I think it's just whether you want those shorter action games or don't mind pouring in 30 hours for a lengthy experience.
If it were scored by points, the SNES would have a 96, the Neo Geo a 92 or 93, the Turbografx maybe like an 89, and the Genesis an 85. For reference, a slightly more modern console like the PS1 might be like a 80 or something.
Also, I think it's important to note that the SNES leaps ahead like 5 points based really on like those 2 games and maybe like Earthbound I guess maybe. The traditional view of having the SNES sorta win easily because of Final Fantasy 6, Chrono Trigger, Super Mario World, and just a range of the famous games really isn't enough for me. I'd still rather just try and slug out another level of Magician Lord, it's so immediate and epic. I've played I feel like every famous game on the SNES including obscure cult RPGs like Ogre battle, and it just doesn't really matter to me whether it's an RPG or not but just a good addicting game of any genre. That, the Neo Geo has plenty of to be sure. Also, a lot of RPGs in on any system in any era just are no fun to me, even early on, and later nowadays it's a completely oversaturated genre with often little fun to be had.
Finally, it should be obvious now and I should just mention, neither of the 2 above games were released in the US, which would actually make the Neo Geo the winner in a sense, but I don't know, there's still Earthbound. Since there's ways of playing the other 2 games now I count them retroactively as being part of the SNES experience.
Here's how the finale was won by the SNES (ahem, for me, of course, all of the above from my POV), just a song from the original super famicom version of Star Ocean. You can read in the comments more details about how they worked complex sound out of the console.
Personal history
Well, lets start at the very beginning of all games for me, the NES, a system I barely remember, but the fact that I still do remember it pretty vividly at times is important to me. It was just things like Duck Hunt, and Super Mario 1, 2, and 3, but they left a strong impression.
It was only natural, that when the time came for a new machine, I would get the new Super Nintendo for Mario and things of that like. I remember many games like Super Mario World and A Link to the Past being incredibly epic and left a really strong impression. I was very happy with my Super Nintendo and played many games on it. Other highlights were Mega Man X2 and X3, the X3 cartridge which I still have to this day.
Then, Sonic arrived, and I would look at game magazines for images from things like Vectorman and it had a style and substance that was very cool and interesting to me. Before I knew it, I was lost in the world of Ecco the Dolphin and desperately trying to get a friend to help me finally beat Sonic 2 to see the end credits. (I don't know if we actually beat it, but I remember the scene of Sonic jumping on to the Death Egg from Tails's plane, but I also kind of remember getting to giant robotnik and maybe dying there because we didn't understand you could just wait to hit him safely once he lands from his jumping targeted attack and died repeatedly on his hands as he moved back and forward trying to hit him).
So the genesis became an important thing, mainly for Sonic and related things.
However, I kept playing my SNES and ended up getting many classics RPGs such as Earthbound, Super Mario RPG, and Lufia 2 for it.
Fast forward to many years later, I decide to play some old games, and what jumps out at me first is the SNES classic. Oh wow, the SNES classic it has like Final Fantasy 6 and Secret of Mana and stuff and I played those right away. However, since the mini console came with so many games, I decided to play a bunch of games on there and ended up beating my first contra game and it made me realize how the SNES was really a diverse machine.
That's when I realized, despite having played all those games, it felt like something was missing, and this is something I mentioned in another thread, which is the sheer thrill of an epic gaming showdown where you are totally into the game and beating it feels like an intense thing that sticks with you, and despite having many amazing things, I think the SNES always just made me feel really "comfortable." Specifically, the games that made me feel the intensity were on the genesis.
So I got a sega genesis Mini, and at first I played it safe, not wanting to go into the "old" action games without game saves or checkpoints and instead the classic, if you lose, you start all the way from the beginning of the game. I just thought, there's no way I can do that again.
However, steadily and surely, I made progress, beating game after game, including all the sonic games I hadn't beaten and some which aren't strictly genesis like Sonic CD and Dark Wizard. Every time, what I found was Sega does what Nintendon't, Castlevania? Better than the genesis. Contra? Better on the genesis. Ghouls and Ghosts? Incredible on the SNES but I just flat out prefer the Genesis version which is a different game like the previous 2 just made specifically for genesis. I was getting minor bursts of that epic feeling every time.
Then one way or another, I found out the Turbografx existed, and I thought, what the? So, I got Valis for the Switch and was blown away. The cutscenes in an action game were unlike anything I had seen in Sonic and Mario, and although it wasn't technically they're mascot platformer, Bonk was, I still found it fascinating and it totally shredded the likes of Mega Man and stuff for me. Mega Man always beat SNES mario for me because it was just more cool, summoning Zero and having him lightsaber out a few robots was just good times, but now you had 3x the power of that in the Turbografx 16 (well, with CD add on).
I still rewatch the confrontation between Reiko and Yuko from Valis I on the PC engine sometimes just to remember how incredible that was and how it brings a whole new dimension to gaming. That led to the decision to get a modded PC engine that would play Turbografx games, and I was all set to play what clearly had to be the best 16 bit gaming machine.
But then, I saw a random Neo Geo video, and all I can really remember thinking was, oh no! I thought I just got the best 16 gaming machine in the Turbografx but this is clearly the winner! I tried to say, it's ok, the Turbografx is like 90% of the style of the Neo Geo, I still have basically the same thing, who cares about the extra 10%?
But no, I couldn't resist, and since Neo Geo consoles were expensive, I relied on the old reliable solution which I had already planned to do with the Turbografx which was get the mini and play the games, by getting what remains an incredible steal IMO the Neo Geo Mini. Yes, the graphics aren't pixel perfect on a TV, but that's the only downside and they still clearly look like the arcade level which is the most important thing IMO.
I immediately played Blazing Star, as I wanted to play games I was familiar with which included shmups, and it was a surreal entry into the world of Neo Geo, as I had infinite credits but I've found that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the game, and I did. Then I played Metal Slug 1 as I had played Metal Slug 1 back in the arcades and thought yeah, this is kinda the Neo Geo I think? I got to the final mission and it was basically good like I remembered.
More time passes, and I realize the old itch for old games is back and this time I go straight to the genesis. I finish old genesis games I hadn't finished on the mini 1 and get a mini 2 and start playing those, but somewhere in the middle of Ristar I get tired. I think, ok, just because it's on the genesis and made by Sega or something doesn't mean I'm going to like it, necessarily, and I start to think of all the Turbografx and Neo Geo games I could be playing.
But I don't have the Turbo mini, so I play the Neo Geo Mini instead, like, all of it. I start with games I'm familiar with but then I'm just playing anything that looks interesting, Samurai Showdown 5 Special! Crossed Swords! Sudddenly it's apparent to me that it's all glorious and worth a shot, and it seems the Neo Geo is set to be the best console of all time.
I think the core of the appeal of the Neo Geo is that it follows in a direct line from Valis for me as in, we're going to make this even more cool for you, bigger badder better theme. If I have to kinda wait 20 minutes for the fun to happen for SMW, it's 10 minutes for Sonic, like 2 minutes for Valis, and it's just a continuous overflow with Neo Geo games because they're all so immediate, just like games designed for arcades always kinda were IMO. The next part dives into hardware though.
Hardware comparsion
I'm not an expert, but I was playing Sonic 3 and Knuckles and I kept thinking, I get that this is just "not" the same level as the SNES on some level, but why does it kinda, look better to me? I mean, standing in a zone, I get it, but with movement, the pixels and screens scrolling and blurring, the genesis just seems to come alive when there's movement. I tried to find an explanation for this and watched some Game Sack's videos, and he goes in depth to various consoles, as well as the Neo Geo, and I watch all of them.
Basically, the SNES is superior to the Genesis in many technical categories, except for speed, which is apparently where Blast Processing comes from. Now I don't know the hardware, but could the faster processor be part of which Sonic games look so good in motion? SNES's mode 7 is cool but it tends to work at a moderate speed to me, even in F zero it's just sort of in the background. I feel a level of polish emanating the Genesis simply because games appear to look better once they're moving. Static images from the genesis don't tell the whole story for me.
Well, how does that factor into the Turbografx? Well despite not having played more than handful of titles, they also seem to look good in motion, like Psychic Storm and the like. All in all, they communicate a more arcadey feel.
Then comes the Neo Geo, well the breakdown that I understand is that it really is not necessarily a 24 bit machine but rather an 8 bit and 16 bit machine together or something, moreover, what a large part of the game size is used for in my understanding is all the sprites and animations.
So that does that bode bad for the Neo Geo? No, on the contrary! The emphasis on sprites and animation I think makes for some of the most fantastic games of the 16 bit era. In fact, it seems to me that SNK, Sega, and NEC were all competing with 1980s Nintendo, but in the 90s, Nintendo made sort of "softer" games and more RPGs and a very colorful machine as evidenced by games like Super Mario World 2. They wanted the world to be a gentler place, but IMO, 1990s Nintendo is just not the same level of cool as 1980s Nintendo. 1980s Nintendo has SMB3 which is blazed into memory almost like a 90s genesis game as being iconic and fun. So the SNES was doing something different and sacrificed arcade cool in many ways to SNK, Sega, and NEC. It was a bad choice it seemed to me, at the time, then I felt the other way, but two games persuaded me there was actually method to Nintendo's madness of save your game play the level over and over now and softer approach.
Software and Finale Conclusion
Star Ocean and Tales of Phantasia, that's when I realized I had my answer to the 16 bit console wars. Two games made by basically the same team that made games also for Telenet Japan back for the Turbografx, these 48 meg cartridge behemoths also revealed important hardware bits of the later Snes. There was more than just the FX chip, there was data compression, advanced sound techniques and other things to utterly maximize the SNES. It occurred to me then that I had played my SNES back in the day well into 1996 even after the release of the PS1 and other things, for things like Lufia 2 and Earthbound. I checked and those games retailed I think for like 75 and 70 dollars, which was incredibly expensive at the time. Lufia 2 is the most expensive game I ever got at retail, but I think it was probabaly because of the meg size.
I think these late SNES games really pushed the limits of hardware, and with incredible OSTs that were basically better than many Saturn and PS1 games in quality, the SNES had evolved along the lines of how gaming would eventually evolve.
So can Zelda 3, Super Mario World, and Mega Man X still beat the Neo Geo, or even Valis, or Sonic? Well, maybe not! But Zelda 3 in particular created the architecture for a new kind of game, the epic RPG, with incredible story presentation and art and good design of course as well.
That may not be enough to top even Street Fighter 2 on the SNES or genesis for sheer fun factor, but it was a step in a new direction, and one that would reach it's fulfillment later on with the late SNES catalogue.
Given how popular RPGs would become like World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy, I think the late SNES was actually the creation of a whole new idea in gaming, at least in popular consciousness, which would last well into modern times. So Nintendo did kind of have the right idea, it's just they themselves didn't totally have the exact hardware or software needed to support it in the beginning.
So minus basically a single of few companies from Japan and really America (for later) as well, the Neo Geo is truly forever IMO as the best experience in gaming, and for practical purposes, it might as well be, at least for me. However, I can't ignore those really addicting RPGs and I think it's just whether you want those shorter action games or don't mind pouring in 30 hours for a lengthy experience.
If it were scored by points, the SNES would have a 96, the Neo Geo a 92 or 93, the Turbografx maybe like an 89, and the Genesis an 85. For reference, a slightly more modern console like the PS1 might be like a 80 or something.
Also, I think it's important to note that the SNES leaps ahead like 5 points based really on like those 2 games and maybe like Earthbound I guess maybe. The traditional view of having the SNES sorta win easily because of Final Fantasy 6, Chrono Trigger, Super Mario World, and just a range of the famous games really isn't enough for me. I'd still rather just try and slug out another level of Magician Lord, it's so immediate and epic. I've played I feel like every famous game on the SNES including obscure cult RPGs like Ogre battle, and it just doesn't really matter to me whether it's an RPG or not but just a good addicting game of any genre. That, the Neo Geo has plenty of to be sure. Also, a lot of RPGs in on any system in any era just are no fun to me, even early on, and later nowadays it's a completely oversaturated genre with often little fun to be had.
Finally, it should be obvious now and I should just mention, neither of the 2 above games were released in the US, which would actually make the Neo Geo the winner in a sense, but I don't know, there's still Earthbound. Since there's ways of playing the other 2 games now I count them retroactively as being part of the SNES experience.
Here's how the finale was won by the SNES (ahem, for me, of course, all of the above from my POV), just a song from the original super famicom version of Star Ocean. You can read in the comments more details about how they worked complex sound out of the console.
And it is true that the Neo Geo can't compete with any of the other systems in terms of game range or choice.
hope you are ok dude
